Remove 'Galactic Wonders' as perk.

[starsiege21]

I agree that this Galactic Wonders needs to change.

An idea that came up to mind is by dismantling it entirely and distributing them among the other ascension perks available.

Maybe something like?

Dyson Sphere ?
Interstellar Assembly Imperial Prerogative/?
Matter Decompressor Grasp the Void/?
Mega Art Installation One Vision?
Ring World ?
Science Nexus Technological Ascendancy/ Transcendent Learning?
Sentry Array Enigmatic Engineering/ Grasp the Void?
Strategic Coordination Center Eternal Vigilance/Galactic Force Projection?

This is something I made real quick to give you an idea of what I was looking for but in my opinion moving them around would make it more impactful on what ascension perks you take.

 

[Everstill]

One of the mods I've seen (I believe it was "The Utopia Dream" by AlphaAsh) handles this quite well IMO. Essentially it splits most of the wonders between other Perks (the science Nexus being unlocked by Technological Ascendancy, for example). It did keep Galactic wonders (which unlocked all the wonders, but it quite a bit later than some of the other perks, and no longer a must pick if you can get the wonders you want anyway). (The mod also does some other stuff but it's this change which is relevant to the conversation).

Personally I feel this is probably the way to go, attaching specific wonders to different perks (and maybe retooling Galactic Wonders to be more about specializing into Galactic Wonders - possibly combining it into master builders). Another option is to attach wonders to Tradition finishers (or of course both - no reason some wonders can't be unlocked by traditions while others are unlocked by Perks).

This is the answer.

Give Megastructure unlocks to other Ascension Perks and keep Galactic Wonders to unlock everything. Maybe combine it with Master Builders.

 

[kyberus]

Concerning the proposition of splitting the galactic wonders behind yet more ascension perks, I have this to say: Please no.

Yes, you can ignore them if you wish to end the game before the time period they become relevant, which is completely valid. This feels similar to how some people rarely play into the late game in Civ, and rarely build late game wonders. However if you continue playing into that time period, they are what you spend your resources on, short of pushing yourself a massive way above your fleet cap (which is fine, but its nice to have something else to do, and really falls under the first heading of ending the game by military aggression). Splitting them into different ascension perks is like splitting the major districts and buildings into ascension perks in the midgame. Suddenly if you want research labs, mining districts and holo theatres you need three different ascension perks. That sounds deeply un-enjoyable to me.

As a second point, putting them into the existing ascension perks would either: A) require delaying those ascension perks to the late game B) allowing megastructures to potentially become available in the early to mid game C) gating late game technologies behind mid game ascension perks. None of those things sound appealing to me. Plus, the combination often does not make sense. Why does building different large structures depend on the evolution of my society to be more imperialistic, when I can otherwise build similarly sized megastructures?

Given that megastructures make up a large part of what non-galactic-conquering empires do past a certain phase in the game, however, moving them to technologies without an ascension perk seems reasonable to me.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I quite frequently don't take Galactic Wonders.

 

[Mikhail_Mengsk]

I think that locking the megastructures behind tradition finishers would make sense. This is what I think would fit for each.
Expansion: Matter Decompressor
Domination: Sentry Array
Prosperity: Dyson Sphere
Harmony: Mega-Art Installation
Supremacy: Strategic Coordination Center
Diplomacy: Interstellar Assembly
Discovery: Science Nexus

This is exactly what i did when i modded the Traditions. I only left Dyson Sphere and Matter Decompressor in the Ascension PErk, because they aren't "specific" to some playstyle.

 

[Ikael]

Galactic wonders being added and merged with other ascension perks seems like sensible solution to me, not to mention that there are a lot of ascension perks that needs to be reworked, merged or severely buffed *looks at trascendent learning*

As for the balance problems that unlocking megastructures earlier could cause, I think that there's little to fear: Megastructures do take a lot of time to build plus a massive amount of resources that one does not simply possess at the early game. On this scenario, you could possibly unlock them earlier, yes, but that would require you to devote your entire empire to such project (or add the "master builders" ascension perk for good measure).

Turning megastructures into viable mid game strategies, instead of being late game vanity projects (or "win more" artifacts) would be far more interesting, IMHO.

 

[Technoincubus]

That is the same old story. Europa Universalis IV - whole lot of espionage actions have been shoved behind Idea wall. So nobody used them because nobidy took that idea. So Paradox brought them back eventually.
Instead of barring entire branch of features like Megastructures behind a perk(perks, in case of Ringworlds) we could have perks that could affect said megastructures.
Anyway, wasting perks on megastructures is not the best option.

 

[BarbeQ]

Turning megastructures into viable mid game strategies, instead of being late game vanity projects (or "win more" artifacts) would be far more interesting, IMHO.

This. Combined with the "Complete Tradition" unlock. I always have the feeling that Megastructures become available too late in the game to be really relevant.

 

[DonKeeOT]

One of the mods I've seen (I believe it was "The Utopia Dream" by AlphaAsh) handles this quite well IMO. Essentially it splits most of the wonders between other Perks (the science Nexus being unlocked by Technological Ascendancy, for example). It did keep Galactic wonders (which unlocked all the wonders, but it quite a bit later than some of the other perks, and no longer a must pick if you can get the wonders you want anyway). (The mod also does some other stuff but it's this change which is relevant to the conversation).

Personally I feel this is probably the way to go, attaching specific wonders to different perks (and maybe retooling Galactic Wonders to be more about specializing into Galactic Wonders - possibly combining it into master builders). Another option is to attach wonders to Tradition finishers (or of course both - no reason some wonders can't be unlocked by traditions while others are unlocked by Perks).

This is a great idea - having certain wonders attached to completing each tree.

 

[Attitude Adjuster]

Think part of the problem here is that there are not nearly enough ascension perks to chose from, and a reasonable quantity of the ones that we have just are not that useful.

 

[Losttruppen]

Turning megastructures into viable mid game strategies, instead of being late game vanity projects (or "win more" artifacts) would be far more interesting, IMHO.

I would rather the AI become competent than bring everything else down to its level. Megastructures are all that is left once you have one of each focused planet type and you just start building more of whatever template you've established ad nauseam. I really don't want to just pick 8 different perks instead of one in order to use the only things late game has going for it.

 

[Ikael]

I would rather the AI become competent than bring everything else down to its level. Megastructures are all that is left once you have one of each focused planet type and you just start building more of whatever template you've established ad nauseam. I really don't want to just pick 8 different perks instead of one in order to use the only things late game has going for it.

I really don't get your argument. Earlier megastructures wouldn't dumb down the game, but rather the opposite. The current version of megastructures doesn't offer any kind of meaningful choice nor posses any kind of strategical depth.

 

[Losttruppen]

Earlier megastructures wouldn't dumb down the game, but rather the opposite.

I never said it would dumb down the game, I said it would take the only thing to do in the late game besides building more cookie cutter planets and move it earlier simply because the AI can't stay competent past the mid game. That's just ignoring the key issue which is lack of challenge in the late game from regular empires giving no real use for megastructures aside from ensuring you snowball further away from the AI. I don't want owning half the map to be the only viable choice to fight crises on higher levels.

 

[Ikael]

I never said it would dumb down the game, I said it would take the only thing to do in the late game besides building more cookie cutter planets and move it earlier simply because the AI can't stay competent past the mid game. That's just ignoring the key issue which is lack of challenge in the late game from regular empires giving no real use for megastructures aside from ensuring you snowball further away from the AI. I don't want owning half the map to be the only viable choice to fight crises on higher levels.

I get you now and I do agree with you, in the sense that there needs to be additional late game challenges, not less. But even if you could unlock megastructures earlier, I really doubt that you would be able to build more than one by the time you reach the end game, thus leaving you with something else to do, not to mention that if you spread megastructures you would still need to reach the end game in order to "catch them all". Still, the big picture problem, as you say, it's the AI (or its lack of thereof).

 

[Technoincubus]

That was the same crap as adding traditions that only boosted Unity. And Unity could be used ONLY to get traditions back then, before Unity ambitions were not there

 

[Husein]

I never said it would dumb down the game, I said it would take the only thing to do in the late game besides building more cookie cutter planets and move it earlier simply because the AI can't stay competent past the mid game. That's just ignoring the key issue which is lack of challenge in the late game from regular empires giving no real use for megastructures aside from ensuring you snowball further away from the AI. I don't want owning half the map to be the only viable choice to fight crises on higher levels.

That is up for the player to decide and not trough artificial limits. Rushing wonders requires a different gameplay from the start compared to any other. SImply getting your resource stockpiles up to 50 000 so you can acomodate the needs for construction of such issues is a huge ordeal, nevermind the rest.

 

[Slynx]

for me there are 4 game changers in the late game.
1)Habitats - even though they can't be used to win the game they are still good if you ran out of planets. and since your population must be constantly growing it's a good option (also it conserve some of admin cap)
2)other megastructures - when you need a lot of basic resources of a said type (minerals from decompressor, food from ringworld, energy from a sphere, science and unity)
3)ecumenopolis for advanced resource production (also it's a shame that amenities and CG are not empire wide ...like happened to food)
and
4)colossus\total war - when you need to paint the map in your color.
and most of other perks are almost useless. you don't need fleet cap - just build more starbases. you don't need bonus vs crisis - just build more ships. ethics\edicts only saves you a bit of time and influence. unity\science - just build more buildings of that type and so on.

so instead of dumbing down megastructures to something useless or widely attainable better buff existing perks to be contenders.
giving the megastructures for tradition finisher is kinda silly. everyone will get all 7 traditions eventually. so it's a "no choice" either. and what will happen if paradox will decide to introduce even more megastructures?
and tying them to existing ascension perks (thus making you fill even more slots with megastructures instead of something interesting) will lead you to essentially removal some of megastructures from the game - who will choose art or coordination centre if he could fix his economy with a sphere instead?(also don't forget that megastructures are 1 per empire. even if you'll loose the territory you've build it in)

 

[Brian Bóroimhe]

Dividing Habitats, Wonders and Ringworlds into 3 perks is ridiculous.

Instead of barring entire branch of features like Megastructures behind a perk(perks, in case of Ringworlds)

Not sure when you guys last actually played the game. But ringworlds were folded into the Galactic wonders perk a while back. They do not require their own individual perk anymore.

I'd like to see voidborn and master builders merged, maybe with ringworlds moved into that new perk as well. And/or move a couple others like sentry array & interstellar assembly in there too.
That way there would be one perk for the production megastructures, and the other for fake planets + ancillary benefits.

At the moment I always take Galactic wonders and master builders. But master builders just feels like a shit perk because it only lets you make more use of the overloaded megastructures perk.

 

[Slynx]

Dyson Sphere ?
Interstellar Assembly Imperial Prerogative/?
Matter Decompressor Grasp the Void/?
Mega Art Installation One Vision?
Ring World ?
Science Nexus Technological Ascendancy/ Transcendent Learning?
Sentry Array Enigmatic Engineering/ Grasp the Void?
Strategic Coordination Center Eternal Vigilance/Galactic Force Projection?

it's like suggesting to remove "interstellar assembly"(diplomacy for a useless just pick colossus) "mega art installation"(unity when you've already finished all trees?), "sentry array"(less lags anyway), strategic coordination centre (def platforms are useless) from the game.

you can also substitute "science nexus"(just build science habitat. or 3) and "dyson sphere"(trade ecumenopolis can easily produce 1k+ energy)

leaving you with only matter decompressor for minerals(1 per empire per game, don't forget, but at least you can produce your own black hole if you trigger the worm, so it'll make it more difficult to steal if from you) and a ring world for food. that's 2 perks(+1 for habitats I assume).... isn't it the same as right now but with more troubles and less choice?​

 

[MightyFox]

Megastructures do indeed create many problems in terms of late game balance, but I strongly disagree with many of the ideas proposed in this thread.

Stellaris already suffers from its empires being played the same way over and over, regardless of how you build them, or which side you pick. In the end, it boils down to playing tall, playing wide, playing aggressive, and playing passive. Everything else is just flavoring. This fundamental issue needs to be shaken up through the introduction of strict and purposefully inconvenient limitations upon factions, making it so that ethics, traits, and other early game choices, truly matter in the long run of things. Giving everyone Galactic Wonders is the exact opposite of this, boiling the above choices down to just two, because playing tall won't matter anymore if the wides can eventually just build all your stuff anyway, and a ring world in the hands of a democracy functions all the same as one in the hands of a dictator.

Choices need to matter in Stellaris, and Galactic wonders needs to remain a choice you have to choose to pursue. The problem with them is there currently exists no choice of equal weight to counter their sheer productivity. The idea of splitting them up between even more perks I also find distasteful, as it just means there will be even less slots for less variety between empires. That is, after all, one of the biggest flaws of the unity tree system. It was put in place to create distinct differences between empires, yet, every empire is eventually going to research all the trees anyway. This, is where I believe the real fixes should take place.

The unity trees should be made MUCH larger, BUT you can only pick a main, and a secondary based upon your ethics. Spread ALL the perks throughout the trees, add more, and allow for overlap so players can pick and choose their empire's social workings. Put some really nice choices at the bottom of each tree, such as Colosuss for supremecay, ring world for expansion, nexus and sentry array for discovery, but make it so the path chosen to get there is narrow. This means you can either build an empire with a lot of general perks and abilities, or one focused upon one of those late game tech strategies. Unity matters again, because the more of it you have, the more choices you can make throughout the course of the game (at a cost to other production of course), but having a smaller unity base, with a specific path in mind, can result in equally spectacular results, just with far less adaptability. Choice is added back into the game, and more importantly, it matters.