Remove 'Galactic Wonders' as perk.

[Knuffeldraak]

Over the course of many, many games, I have wondered one major thing... Why is Galactic Wonders an Ascension Perk?

As I kept learning about Stellaris, I've always taken the impression that Ascension Perks were designed to offer a new 'path' for your empire to take. Something new or different than others, that defines a unique playstyle, that's different each game or each combination. However, there is one ascension perk that does not do this.

Galactic Wonders.

Anyone who owns and uses the Utopia DLC is able to agree with me on this one; You ALWAYS pick Galactic Wonders. Galactic Wonders is THE endgame decision to pick. (Or at least, I've never seen anyone that prefers any other ascension perk above Galactic Wonders in ALL 8 slots.) Why is this a perk? Why is a whole endgame stage of the game locked behind an Ascension Perk? If EVERYONE takes this perk, then why is it a perk? What defines it being an 'optional' path? Voidborne and Master Builders are unique on their own. Voidborne gives mid-game bonus planets for cheap mineral cost, and Master Builders supports the existance of megastructures (+ gives the research immediately).

Remove Galactic Wonders as perk, and just make it a standard content by default, unlocked by research. There's no reason for it to be a 'decision'. If everyone does it already anyway, what's the point of it being in a list of optional/variable stuff?

 

[BrokenSky]

One of the mods I've seen (I believe it was "The Utopia Dream" by AlphaAsh) handles this quite well IMO. Essentially it splits most of the wonders between other Perks (the science Nexus being unlocked by Technological Ascendancy, for example). It did keep Galactic wonders (which unlocked all the wonders, but it quite a bit later than some of the other perks, and no longer a must pick if you can get the wonders you want anyway). (The mod also does some other stuff but it's this change which is relevant to the conversation).

Personally I feel this is probably the way to go, attaching specific wonders to different perks (and maybe retooling Galactic Wonders to be more about specializing into Galactic Wonders - possibly combining it into master builders). Another option is to attach wonders to Tradition finishers (or of course both - no reason some wonders can't be unlocked by traditions while others are unlocked by Perks).

 

[Talanic]

Honestly, go the same with habitats. Have them unlock with Star Fortress technology, or let you unlock a cheaper version of them earlier with Voidborne. Right now they just don't seem needed.

 

[Knuffeldraak]

I know that mod! And those ideas sounded VERY good! This is just a wild idea, but I've been talking about these things before with some friends.

- New Megastructure; Space Vault (Massively increases stockpile)
- New Megastructure; Fortress (An extra defensive station for a system) Unlocked with Eternal Vigilance
- New Megastructure; Economy Plaza (Placed in another's system. Provides a boost in Energy, Unity and Consumer Goods to you and the system's owner) Unlocked with Universal Transactions
- New Megastructure; Interstellar Embassy (increases Administrative Cap) Unlocked with Shared Destiny
- Science Nexus, increase Research Output, unlocked with Technological Ascendancy
- Sentry Array, unlocked with Enigmatic Engineering
- Strategic Coordination Center, unlocked with Galactic Force Projection

 

[Knuffeldraak]

Honestly, go the same with habitats. Have them unlock with Star Fortress technology, or let you unlock a cheaper version of them earlier with Voidborne. Right now they just don't seem needed.

I can think of many instances where Habitats aren't relevant (enough) to pick as perk, though. It's not 'as severe'.

 

[Ryika]

Honestly, go the same with habitats. Have them unlock with Star Fortress technology, or let you unlock a cheaper version of them earlier with Voidborne. Right now they just don't seem needed.

I don't think that's sound reasoning. Habitats are designed to be an actual choice. If balanced correctly, then some strategies rely on them, while others ignore them completely. That's exactly the kind of thing that should be put on an Ascension perk.

The endgame wonders on the other hand... you basically always want them, because there isn't really any alternative right now. I personally would prefer if they introduced actual alternatives instead of just removing the Ascension Perk requirement, but as the game is right now, they might as well remove the perk.

 

[Incompetent]

Galactic Wonders is a very overloaded perk, but I'm not convinced it's strictly 'must have'. It's a no-brainer for people who want to keep building up endlessly and play very long games, because at some stage you have nothing else to do; but if you plan to win before the endgame crisis hits, it's just not that important. In practice I'd say the Arcology Project is harder to turn down for those who can get it, because it comes online earlier in the game, and it's very hard for an empire that doesn't have Ecumenopolises to get close to the alloy output of an empire that does have them. And of course, if you're not a genocidal empire but do want to wrap up the game quickly through conquest, the Colossus Project is close to must-have, just for the CB.

 

[Flame13223]

Yeah I mentioned how this perk is an issue on a "not enough ascention perk slots" discussion, because you kinda need 3 perks to get all the megastructure stuff...

 

[M@ni@c]

They seem to want to put the DLC stuff behind ascension perks for some reason.

 

[metalosse]

They seem to want to put the DLC stuff behind ascension perks for some reason.

Because if they don't, it creates an inflation of power.

They don't want to see Stellaris as a game where the advised crisis strength is based on the number of dlc you own.

 

[Slynx]

well... I almost always pick voidborne\galactic wonders\master builder(cuz I like them, duh) + ascension1-2 + colossus (for total war mainly, cuz it makes things faster) +added ecumenopolis in 2.2 in almost every game I play. that leaves me with either 8th perk if I had a patience to wait for voidborne 1st, or none AP at all(cuz I've probably selected something like nihilistic).

should I also create a thread suggesting to remove them?

as you mentioned Galactic Wonders makes a difference. you start building megastructures. some of them are pretty awesome(nexus, sphere, decompressor) some of them are less so. but IT IS a difference.
i'd better ask for removal of some useless or boring perks like One Vision or GFP. or making some things from the dlc ascension perk too(like Armageddon bombardment for non-genocidal empires)

 

[mergele]

Ehm, I almost never pick galactic wonders or habitats, to much cost, opportunity cost and to late a payoff to be usefull most of the time in my opinion.

 

[Husein]

Dividing Habitats, Wonders and Ringworlds into 3 perks is ridiculous. Forcing perk picks (This perk requires one two three other picks) and such things is also ridiculous. We already have a resource limit. Early game first perk there's a resource cap limit that won't be reached in a while

 

[Slynx]

Ehm, I almost never pick galactic wonders or habitats, to much cost, opportunity cost and to late a payoff to be usefull most of the time in my opinion.

if you're peaceful empire you'll have more minerals and alloys then you can spend (unless you're diving them away for free to other empires or selling to gain some more energy)

so habitats and megastructures will give you at least something to do while you wait for things to happen. btw it's actually pretty easy to get +200-300 minerals\month with a good forge world. and same amount of alloys with an ecumenopolis.

 

[Knuffeldraak]

Galactic Wonders is a very overloaded perk, but I'm not convinced it's strictly 'must have'. It's a no-brainer for people who want to keep building up endlessly and play very long games, because at some stage you have nothing else to do; but if you plan to win before the endgame crisis hits, it's just not that important. In practice I'd say the Arcology Project is harder to turn down for those who can get it, because it comes online earlier in the game, and it's very hard for an empire that doesn't have Ecumenopolises to get close to the alloy output of an empire that does have them. And of course, if you're not a genocidal empire but do want to wrap up the game quickly through conquest, the Colossus Project is close to must-have, just for the CB.

If you want to finish before the endgame, you don't even reach your full 8 slots yet. (at least, I never have)

Yeah I mentioned how this perk is an issue on a "not enough ascention perk slots" discussion, because you kinda need 3 perks to get all the megastructure stuff...

Not really... you can get the Megastructure Restoration research normally. Master Builders just gives it to you right away as an additional bonus option.

 

[Wolfgang I]

I liked to play 2250 endgame date 5x crisis games and galactic wonders were not something I could afford to spend resources on in such games.
It was more a RP playthrough pick for me and even in those I usually had a lot of ringworlds to repair.

 

[Little Red]

I think that locking the megastructures behind tradition finishers would make sense. This is what I think would fit for each.
Expansion: Matter Decompressor
Domination: Sentry Array
Prosperity: Dyson Sphere
Harmony: Mega-Art Installation
Supremacy: Strategic Coordination Center
Diplomacy: Interstellar Assembly
Discovery: Science Nexus

 

[Highlordelliot]

The only problem with galactic wonders is that it takes so long to unlock the tech and traditions that it’s not that useful.
I have to play on minimal tradition/tech cost setting to get them at any meaningful point

 

[Defiler99]

I liked to play 2250 endgame date 5x crisis games.

Holy crap, how is that even survivable?

 

[Wolfgang I]

Holy crap, how is that even survivable?

As I said I liked it as this was before 2.2.
The crisis only spawns after 2300 with that setup. That was usually enough to get about 1000k fleet strength by the time the crisis spawned. I started with total war or with a map full of purifiers in those games though(at 1x habitable planets and 1x tech speed).
Edit: An early Khan was often the main threat in those games not the endgame crisis.

I have only tried it properly once after 2.2 because I find that the late game micro no fun at all if you have lots of planets and that was with inward perfection on a map full of purifiers. I'm pretty shit at 2.2 and only hit about 250k fleet strength by 2300 even with that cooked setup. I would have died but the crisis bugged out.