I can't even take the "tiles represent the planet" argument seriously. Like how does that even compute? There is only a bunch of tiles and nothing else - no mountain ranges, oceans, we don't know the continents on the planet, major plains and forests. Nothing! A tile with a miniscule pop on it and no less miniscule building.
Removal of tile system
- Thread starter Kobrakai
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Again, I'd rather have a more engaging and useful mechanic than a prettier presentation. The WIP looks, mostly, fine. It could be a little more colourful, maybe make the "zone" icons that use the tile art a bit more prominent or something, but I don't see how its the end of the world you're painting it as.
What can I say, I'm a visual guy so actually seeing the things I'm playing with is pretty important to me. It's not the end of the world, it'd just seriously break immersion for me.
IMO its less immersion-breaking for a galactic-scale empire management game to present planetary information in a more statistical manner and with any visual elements fairly clean and intuitive (like the sort that might actually be used by the government of said empire) than a bunch of messy tiles.
Trust me: I love how pretty planets look with tiles... but that visual appeal fades almost as soon as you've got them colonized.
If anything, I'd rather see improved or enlarged planetary banner art than tiles themselves sticking around.
I could care less if the tile system goes or stays, there is one thing that I want next which has been asked for since the very beginning of the game since it came out and that is Diplomacy and Federations. When are they going to get around to doing that especially when again people have been asking for Diplomacy and Federations to be worked on since when the game came out 3 years ago
Problem was the fact that MoO3 went forward in far too many directions. Not only that but the directorate that made the game went out of their way to remove fan favorites along the way.
However, many of the systems in the game have incredible capabilities in streamlining the game without sacrificing the RP potential. DEAs are probably the best of a tile system and a more abstract system.
I'm not sure how I feel about the tile system being replaced. On one hand, sure, it can be a hassle at times but it works pretty well and it just... looks nice, honestly. I'd much rather look at the sets of buildings my empire has constructed rather than a screen with some pops that says "These guys produce food, these guys produce minerals" etc. There's a point where you streamline information too much and it just becomes visually displeasing to look at, though all we have is one early screenshot (lets' be real it probably won't change much) to go on so far.
That being said, I don't play Stellaris much anyways. The game falls apart after 200 years or so, diplomacy is horrendous and federations are garbage. The lack of any real trade system is also displeasing, but I can live without that if anything else about the core game entertained me.
That being said, I don't play Stellaris much anyways. The game falls apart after 200 years or so, diplomacy is horrendous and federations are garbage. The lack of any real trade system is also displeasing, but I can live without that if anything else about the core game entertained me.
This game is shaping up more and more like the game I originally wanted Stellaris to be... I'm behind all the changes Paradox have done lately and seem to be doing in the future. Removing the tile system is something I wanted since they introduced them in the first dev diaries before the game was released. I was very certain that mechanic was a mess to begin with.
Keep up the good work Paradox!!!
Keep up the good work Paradox!!!
Mostly, I know exactly, how I want to build up my colonies, but the tile-system has some unnecessary flaws, which are pretty annoying ...
01. The "right" tile for the "right" building is often occupied by a tile-blocker, so that it's often the case, that I have to restructure my colonies ...
02. Due to technologies, traditions and ascension-perks, which I get later, I also get the "right" building for my "right" tile later, so that it's also often the case, that I have to restructure my colonies another time ...
03. Despite having a plan, how I want to build up my colonies, it feels utterly "wrong" to place a building on a tile with native resources, which doesn't fit the production of the placed building since these native resources will be suppressed ...
These 3 problems are a result of this strange relation, that (at the end of the day) 1 specific tile is coupled with 1 specific building and 1 specific POP (and pretty often 1 specific combination of native resources, too) ...
This new pic in regards to the colony-management is somewhat better than the current tile-system since ...
01. You can influence the native resources of your colony since you can decide which districts you want to have ...
02. Ok, the POPs are somewhat coupled to the districts, but instead of having the situation, that 1 specific POP is coupled with 1 specific district, it's rather the case, that a chunk of POPs is coupled with a whole production-area, whether it's for unity OR minerals OR EC(s) OR food, so that it should be easier to allow / forbid POPs to be a part of such a chunk or to modify / specialize such a chunk - itself ...
03. The buildings are completely decoupled, so that they can exist in a separate tab, so that 1 mine or plant or farm could represent the whole mineral-/EC-/food-area, so that 1 click in regards to an upgrade could be enough than having to do this in the current multiple manner ...
Furthermore, the districts are counted, so that there's in theory not really a limit how many ones could be on a colony, which is better than in the current tile-system since by having a colony with 25 tiles, it's over ...
In the case, that you're also counting the POPs, I mean at least the identical ones, it's also pretty easy to simulate any form of an overpopulation, which I would define as number of POPs > number of districts ...
It's better.
01. The "right" tile for the "right" building is often occupied by a tile-blocker, so that it's often the case, that I have to restructure my colonies ...
02. Due to technologies, traditions and ascension-perks, which I get later, I also get the "right" building for my "right" tile later, so that it's also often the case, that I have to restructure my colonies another time ...
03. Despite having a plan, how I want to build up my colonies, it feels utterly "wrong" to place a building on a tile with native resources, which doesn't fit the production of the placed building since these native resources will be suppressed ...
These 3 problems are a result of this strange relation, that (at the end of the day) 1 specific tile is coupled with 1 specific building and 1 specific POP (and pretty often 1 specific combination of native resources, too) ...
This new pic in regards to the colony-management is somewhat better than the current tile-system since ...
01. You can influence the native resources of your colony since you can decide which districts you want to have ...
02. Ok, the POPs are somewhat coupled to the districts, but instead of having the situation, that 1 specific POP is coupled with 1 specific district, it's rather the case, that a chunk of POPs is coupled with a whole production-area, whether it's for unity OR minerals OR EC(s) OR food, so that it should be easier to allow / forbid POPs to be a part of such a chunk or to modify / specialize such a chunk - itself ...
03. The buildings are completely decoupled, so that they can exist in a separate tab, so that 1 mine or plant or farm could represent the whole mineral-/EC-/food-area, so that 1 click in regards to an upgrade could be enough than having to do this in the current multiple manner ...
Furthermore, the districts are counted, so that there's in theory not really a limit how many ones could be on a colony, which is better than in the current tile-system since by having a colony with 25 tiles, it's over ...
In the case, that you're also counting the POPs, I mean at least the identical ones, it's also pretty easy to simulate any form of an overpopulation, which I would define as number of POPs > number of districts ...
It's better.
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I think we should keep the current tile system but add more types of terrain for tiles (no not new deposits) for example instead of having a continental planet with 16 copies of the same tile for example you could have
-Plains tiles
-Hills tiles
-Forest tiles
-Wetlands tiles
none of these would be tile blockers but tiles where unique buildings or variations of another building could be built
it would make planets a lot more unique and the devs could even add individual tile modifiers if they wanted to
-Plains tiles
-Hills tiles
-Forest tiles
-Wetlands tiles
none of these would be tile blockers but tiles where unique buildings or variations of another building could be built
it would make planets a lot more unique and the devs could even add individual tile modifiers if they wanted to
To be honest I don't understand people that find the Tile mechanic art to be immersive... It is just a grid where you place 2d graphical icons with generic buildings. The picture does not really look like a planet but a small area. Buildings look nothing like a civilisation lives there either.
I'm one of those person that MUST micromanage stuff if I can, allowing the AI to do stuff in a stupid way annoy me to bits. This is why I hated the decision to make it possible for me to manage sector planets. I know I don't have to but my brain compel me to do it anyway...
I don't feel like placing buildings give ANY meaningful decision making process outside the first few planets in any way... it is only a resource managing system I need to optimise. I really don't feel it has anything to do with immersing myself in the lore or what is happening around the galaxy at all.
I want most decisions I make to be meaningful and impact my empire, I don't play the game to pass time by doing routine work which I feel optimising planets really are. The only thing I do is make sure to balance my energy, mineral and research output throughout the game to be as efficient as possible. While I get that some people like this stuff I don't understand why?!?
For me playing the game it is the experience I'm after, not winning the game. I never play the game (or pretty much any game) to the end, I always get bored long before the victory screen appear in almost every game I play. Once I reached what I believe is my goal or I know I will easily meet them, I simply start a new game. This is why I think optimisation of numbers is something a game should not allow too much of. We should be more focused on the bigger picture and Paradox should expand more on things like trade, interaction between more mechanic such as culture, pops, diplomacy and politics... these are the things that are REALLY interesting stuff to play with, numbers not so much.
If they rework the system I believe it will become less complex but DEEPER... we all should want the system to be deeper and more interconnected with other features of the game. Not a method to optimise resource output making planets mostly into a resource management system rather than something with character and a political will of their own depending on its influence and standing in society.
Some people have said removing the tile system would simplify the game... so what... simple does not mean less meaningful. A new system can become less complex but with a more richer and deeper impact on your decision making. Most people should enjoy that more, in my opinion...
I'm one of those person that MUST micromanage stuff if I can, allowing the AI to do stuff in a stupid way annoy me to bits. This is why I hated the decision to make it possible for me to manage sector planets. I know I don't have to but my brain compel me to do it anyway...
I don't feel like placing buildings give ANY meaningful decision making process outside the first few planets in any way... it is only a resource managing system I need to optimise. I really don't feel it has anything to do with immersing myself in the lore or what is happening around the galaxy at all.
I want most decisions I make to be meaningful and impact my empire, I don't play the game to pass time by doing routine work which I feel optimising planets really are. The only thing I do is make sure to balance my energy, mineral and research output throughout the game to be as efficient as possible. While I get that some people like this stuff I don't understand why?!?
For me playing the game it is the experience I'm after, not winning the game. I never play the game (or pretty much any game) to the end, I always get bored long before the victory screen appear in almost every game I play. Once I reached what I believe is my goal or I know I will easily meet them, I simply start a new game. This is why I think optimisation of numbers is something a game should not allow too much of. We should be more focused on the bigger picture and Paradox should expand more on things like trade, interaction between more mechanic such as culture, pops, diplomacy and politics... these are the things that are REALLY interesting stuff to play with, numbers not so much.
If they rework the system I believe it will become less complex but DEEPER... we all should want the system to be deeper and more interconnected with other features of the game. Not a method to optimise resource output making planets mostly into a resource management system rather than something with character and a political will of their own depending on its influence and standing in society.
Some people have said removing the tile system would simplify the game... so what... simple does not mean less meaningful. A new system can become less complex but with a more richer and deeper impact on your decision making. Most people should enjoy that more, in my opinion...
Honestly the tile system reduces my immersion a little. The tile system creates an impression of a planetary population spread evenly across the surface of the world. But modern societies are highly urbanised - with most of the population living on a small amount of land.
Only because they've been developed inorganically instead of more sustainable/organic methods ever since the rise of the city states. Even when said sustainable methods came into use, it is far cheaper to simply have the cities as they are. Colonies would probably have less crammed into their urban centers and said urban centers more spread out.
Nope... humans is a social species and we tend to lump together into tight areas... Sure... cities could become more well planed and cover a "slightly" larger area. But species who are social creatures would still live in tight urban areas with the vast majority of land sparsely populated. Only if you had Star Trek type teleportation technology could you see something as you suggested where travelling from one spot to the next being no problem.
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I really can't wait to see the design corner explaining the new system, so we can form a proper opinion about whetever it will be better or worse than tiles.
As how things are looking right now (random ramblings):
- Managing population instead of tiles seems like a good concept, but I fear that pop management will amount to a Master of Orion-esque occupational slot, which is, in essence, a non-decision. "Put intelligent species to work as scientists in order to obtain more science" is boring as hell. I hope that I am wrong and I wish that you can't directly control populations, so they have their own ideas and actions a la Vicky and thus, become more challenging to manage. Yay for having things to do outside of warfare!
- Glad to see how planets will rettain their geographic flavour. Different areas and continents seems more fitting for planets than tiles, and they might allow to "build tall". Now, if only they can give really different, strong bonuses...
- Wondering if the entire economic system will be modified in order to accomodate this brand new tile replacement. It would be great to see different resources and viable economic strategies and models. A knowledge based egalitarian republic should feel quite different to administrate than a slaver empire
As how things are looking right now (random ramblings):
- Managing population instead of tiles seems like a good concept, but I fear that pop management will amount to a Master of Orion-esque occupational slot, which is, in essence, a non-decision. "Put intelligent species to work as scientists in order to obtain more science" is boring as hell. I hope that I am wrong and I wish that you can't directly control populations, so they have their own ideas and actions a la Vicky and thus, become more challenging to manage. Yay for having things to do outside of warfare!
- Glad to see how planets will rettain their geographic flavour. Different areas and continents seems more fitting for planets than tiles, and they might allow to "build tall". Now, if only they can give really different, strong bonuses...
- Wondering if the entire economic system will be modified in order to accomodate this brand new tile replacement. It would be great to see different resources and viable economic strategies and models. A knowledge based egalitarian republic should feel quite different to administrate than a slaver empire
From what I can tell, not exactly. Humans like to go to where the best chances of life is and the urban has always been the best outside of the farms. It wasn't until the Industrial Revolution when cities had anything resembling positive population growth. In the US, the moment that suburbs started showing up, the better off flocked to them... so there is a limit to how cramped and what not you can pack humans into without consequence.
Admittedly once you got a few planets just colonized it's more of a chore to setup all the buildings, it's not very fun. If they can make that simpler I'm totally for that. On the other hand they will have to add something alternative that we can manage as the empire grows and passes time.
The only system that allows that is the DEA system in MoO3... as it responds to population levels than construction...
It is exactly this... humans have tended to flock to places where goods, favours and survival been the strongest and where the social life flourishes. Everything in our history point to this from the hunter gatherer societies to today. People moving to suburbs is not even near any evidence for deurbanisation as it is an increase in transportation efficiency so people can enjoy the luxury of urban environment in a wider area.
People will always seek themselves to where there are the greatest job opportunities, best medical & educational possibilities as well as cultural exchange etc... as long as that is in urban areas that is what you will find. The ONLY thing that can disrupt that trend is better transportation infrastructure. If you can go around the world in a 30min trip for the same money it cost you to take the bus in to town you could have your vision, not before.
Where are you exactly from? If it's Europe, then your viewpoint is a bit skewed as most of the cities are built around a less logical/scientific layout. Outside of the East Coast, the US has an oddly scientific structure of it's cities...
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