Removal of tile system

[obolisk0430]

The thing is, when I fill tiles, I already decided how do I fill them. In previous games. It is not really a decision, it is following a pattern. Build this there, that here. Sector governor could do that for me, but, you know, he can't.

That's a problem with how shallow buildings are, not with the tile system as a whole.

 

[Calor]

That's not at all what I'm talking about. I'm saying that if they make that kind of change, the idea of pops as they exist in stellaris should be completely removed. Tiles would simply track how many people live on them. Migration between tiles would be like migration between planets, in that there would be a law to determine whether or not it can happen automatically, and a law to determine whether or not the player can cause it. If any system here is thoroughly broken, it's the way pops are abstracted into massive blocks that you can drag around to anywhere on the planet.

I am sorry if it wasn't clear but I assumed that PoPs worked that way as that was t´what you used in your example, I just still called them PoPs.
That still leaves me with the same problem, what is the difference between Energyproducing tile 1 and 2. More importantly what is the meaningful and decisionenabling difference between those 2? Because if there is none i can save the computing and UI space and just combine them into "energy Job" on the planet.

Again your system sounds neat until you releazie that it just cuts up a planet into multply mini-planets.

Tiles are not preventing anything anyone has said they prevent.

Ok let me rephrase : everything that a Tile system does a Tileless system does less complicated and more flexible, therefore it offers more leeway in interesting changes and mods
Want more unique buildings ? Great you are now not bound by severly limited space as your shield gen doesn't take up a whole continent worth of space and manpower
Want more tile blockers? Nothing is preventing that in a tileless system
Want planet modifiers? The same
Want to raid for slaves? Finally your plaents aren't 2 full to contain them and you can send them to work in your mines as they should
Want to have domestic slavery? Finally there is a dedicated Job for it because honestly did anyone EVER use that slavery type?

For the umpteenth time, that's a problem with how tiles are used by the game, not a problem with tiles in and of themselves.

Yes it is but that still doesn't change the fact that without tiles it would still be better.

 

[Lilhelpy]

That's a problem with how shallow buildings are, not with the tile system as a whole.

Yeah, tile system have benefits too! It's easy to read and it creates some kind of visual representation of a planet. There are also tons of ways to improve tile system, like splitting planet into regions, making different climate-dependent tiles, build cities and industrial zones rather than abstract buildings. Just imagine tidal-locked planet with that! A lot of things can be done to imrove tile system rather than remove it.

I'd love that too! But really, will AI be able to handle even more complicated system?

 

[Fjolsvid]

For all those who want the tile system to stay or just like it, please provide examples of what think is good. Clever little mechanics and stuff like that.
Just shouting "NO!" is not a form of discussion.

I'n also really surprised about cries abut MoO, because MoO2 didn't have tiles, it had build everything possible, because you know, it's a friggin planet.
The amount of surface on it is huge and the sky is the literal limit, because one can build orbital rings around the planet, cities in the depth of oceans and whatever else, maybe a pocket dimension?. it might not be super-economical, but it is possible to build up or down as desired.

The other 4x space game that had tiles and wonders and what else is Galactic Civilizations. Please go take a look at it and try to analyze what is good and bad about it. And how much the tile system there helps to differentiate the planets and makes them unique.

 

[Fjolsvid]

Yeah, tile system have benefits too! It's easy to read and it creates some kind of visual representation of a planet. There are also tons of ways to improve tile system, like splitting planet into regions, making different climate-dependent tiles, build cities and industrial zones rather than abstract buildings. Just imagine tidal-locked planet with that! A lot of things can be done to imrove tile system rather than remove it.

I'd love that too! But really, will AI be able to handle even more complicated system?

All the examples you give do not require a tile system at all. They are great, but what exactly tiles would mean in that case?
Like Earth, in game it is 16-tile planet. Why specifically 16? They don't allow to show geography, because all the mountain ranges don't really form a nice separate area. What about the oceans on the planet? that's 70% of all the surface area of the planet, can't they be used at all?

 

[Leon12]

I've always veered between disliking the tile system and outright hating it, but I've just kind of accepted it because it felt like it was far too much of a core feature to ever be removed.

But they might get rid of the blasted thing? God, yes. It is such a pointless faff. A tileless pop/building management system that is mostly based on assigning pops to things and using modifiers and ethics and tech and planetary deposits to determine max numbers of buildings (along with their productivity) would let you do everything you can currently do but with 2000% less pointless dicking about.

I like the new outpost system, for example, because while it is more tedious it also gives you more strategic choice and makes you think about expansion. Removing the tile system would cost you nothing at all in terms of strategic choices - it would only cost you the adjacency system, which is a pointless minigame anyway. PLUS it might give you a lot more ways to make things like planetary modifiers interesting - e.g. "ore deposits, +5 max mines on this planet"

 

[Lilhelpy]

All the examples you give do not require a tile system at all. They are great, but what exactly tiles would mean in that case?

Just to visually represent the planet and regions. The same can be done without tiles, I guess. Like regions and Victoria-style pops.

Like Earth, in game it is 16-tile planet. Why specifically 16? They don't allow to show geography, because all the mountain ranges don't really form a nice separate area. What about the oceans on the planet? that's 70% of all the surface area of the planet, can't they be used at all?

Why not? You can make this work together with habitability feature and different techs for different tiles.

 

[Madzai]

The other 4x space game that had tiles and wonders and what else is Galactic Civilizations. Please go take a look at it and try to analyze what is good and bad about it. And how much the tile system there helps to differentiate the planets and makes them unique.

I played it like last week, and the Gal Civ is the reason why i advocate the tiles from the very beginning. Their system, if working, is brilliant because it really allow different buildup on different planets by races with different abilities and types. Adjacency bonuses play the major role in how you planets works, require you make choices constantly. Where to place unique builds, what wonders to place and there. Build up you specialized planet here and now, or wait and try to colonize more in search for a better one. Smaller planets could be better that lager due to bonuses, colonization events and tiles location. Add new builds from tech and it complicate the choices more - make a build that utilize currently available buildings to the max, or wait for a better suited building later. The correlation between POP size and builds, where you can make a specialized planet or turn a characterless planet into overpopulated world and still get a lot of useful stuff from it.
Now imagine another layer of different POP species added to it. The possibilities...

 

[Vohnkar]

The more things Wiz does with Stellaris, the more I realise his vision of the game is totally opposed to mine Too bad for me, I guess, but the game keeps going away from what it once was... Nor necesarily bad, just different, too different for my taste

 

[obolisk0430]

That still leaves me with the same problem, what is the difference between Energyproducing tile 1 and 2. More importantly what is the meaningful and decisionenabling difference between those 2? Because if there is none i can save the computing and UI space and just combine them into "energy Job" on the planet.

Location relative to other tiles, population on the tile, possibly how many people can live on the tile before it's overpopulated, possibly habitability (if planets stop being mono-biome). Just off the top of my head.

Ok let me rephrase : everything that a Tile system does a Tileless system does less complicated and more flexible

That's not true. A tile system is the better option if you want to represent sub-planetary government, and is the better option if you want where things are on the planet relative to each other to matter.

Want more unique buildings ? Great you are now not bound by severly limited space as your shield gen doesn't take up a whole continent worth of space and manpower
Want to raid for slaves? Finally your plaents aren't 2 full to contain them and you can send them to work in your mines as they should
Want to have domestic slavery? Finally there is a dedicated Job for it because honestly did anyone EVER use that slavery type?

All of these problems are better solved by unabstracting populations and buildings, not by removing tiles.

Yes it is but that still doesn't change the fact that without tiles it would still be better.

Disagree. While to an extent, tiles might be "mini-planets" in so far as how planets would be without tiles, the relationship a tile would have another tile on the same planet is completely different from the relationship two tileless planets would have, because they exist on different levels of the game, and aren't separated by the void of space, among other things. Keeping tiles in a system like this would add greater depth to planets in a game that really needs to find some depth.

All the examples you give do not require a tile system at all. They are great, but what exactly tiles would mean in that case?
Like Earth, in game it is 16-tile planet. Why specifically 16? They don't allow to show geography, because all the mountain ranges don't really form a nice separate area. What about the oceans on the planet? that's 70% of all the surface area of the planet, can't they be used at all?

So change the tiles. Make planets stop being multi-biome, instead have planet types be indicative of how many tiles of any particular biome you can expect to see on the planet. Again, the existence of tiles is not the problem.

 

[ouimet1p]

I do not post often and never in the open forums but I feel very strongly about this issue. I understand that there is a diversity of views on this but I fully agree with the original post. The tile system is one of the major reasons why I have over 1000 hours in this game and have only played the new MOO once. I also have stoped enjoying Civ as much in comparison. I really liked the last major changes, but with this...never before have I had such a strong negative emotional reaction to something in a computer game. I am also terrified that my favourite game will become something I don’t enjoy. I do not look forward to finding out more about this because I think this is a very bad idea given the scope of the possible changes but I will listen to what Wiz and others have to say. I also now have much greater empathy for those how were hart broken over the FTL changes even though I think those changes have made the game better. I would finally like to congratulate Paradox on building a game that I care enough about to be this invested.

 

[Rafss]

@Madzai you mean this system?

 

[Molikroth]

The more things Wiz does with Stellaris, the more I realise his vision of the game is totally opposed to mine Too bad for me, I guess, but the game keeps going away from what it once was... Nor necesarily bad, just different, too different for my taste

That is both reasonable and polite. I'm sorry the game is changing from what you enjoy, but I have to say the manner in which you express your discontent is refreshing. Don't give up hope yet though, I hope that we can both have fun with Wiz's vision for the game.

 

[Calor]

Location relative to other tiles, population on the tile, possibly how many people can live on the tile before it's overpopulated, possibly habitability (if planets stop being mono-biome). Just off the top of my head.

That still would for all those things only make 1 tile better and the other worse. So no different from the +1 Energy we have now just way more complicated and more importantly resource intensive than just replacing tiles with a better system (and I really don t want the game to run even slower)

That's not true. A tile system is the better option if you want to represent sub-planetary government, and is the better option if you want where things are on the planet relative to each other to matter.

In a game where even a planetery government isn't implemented in a meaningful way yet I think that's a litte ... ambitious. Nevertheless what makes tiles better here than just having factions on a planet ?
As for the 2nd part : That is exactly what I think makes AI so bad and micro so much work and in my opinion adjencency is a fake feature that only adds a tetris feeling to the game but adds worthwhile and this is purly my opinion and very subjective

All of these problems are better solved by unabstracting populations and buildings, not by removing tiles.

So we can agree that the current system doesn't work here as your solution would be change the system

Disagree. While to an extent, tiles might be "mini-planets" in so far as how planets would be without tiles, the relationship a tile would have another tile on the same planet is completely different from the relationship two tileless planets would have, because they exist on different levels of the game, and aren't separated by the void of space, among other things. Keeping tiles in a system like this would add greater depth to planets in a game that really needs to find some depth.

In what way would that add depth as your idea sounds interesting but I don't see concrete advantages over a nontile system that would be easier to use by the AI and the Player.

So change the tiles. Make planets stop being multi-biome, instead have planet types be indicative of how many tiles of any particular biome you can expect to see on the planet. Again, the existence of tiles is not the problem.

Again you can do that less cumbersome without tiles.

 

[FullMetalFox]

R

I would like to remind everyone that endgame performance is part of the problem. People want the AI to be taught to play with tiles, but it's already a massive resource hog. Improve it, it will be more of a hog.

Well then, lets open this can of worms shall we? Nothing personal against the employee at PDX responsible for it, but recently i started playing with some mods that disable various parts of he AI, and replace their function with scripts. Imagine my suprise when said mods did what they promissed, and also made my late games much faster.

Point being, improving the AI does not only mean to make it able to work with the games systems, but also to optimize it. If some repeating event scripts can do a better job with les resrouce use, then something is seriously wrong with your AI.

Id honestly advice them to hire a dedicated AI programmer, be it full time or just per outsourcing contract.

I have a i7 6850k OC@4.3GHz, which is the max I can clock it. It's a really decent CPU and still I don't go past 600 stars because of endgame perfs.

The engine is 32bits, so it suffers a lot from any kind of bottleneck in your system. (And i better not go on about Intels x86 lottery, otherwise ill get swarmed by intel fanatics...)
I personally am running a Ryzen system, 800 stars are my standard size as i want lots and lots of empires and such. A buddy of mine is also running an i7 on a higher clock than i did on my ryzen, yet he always had more late game throttling due to his mainboard bottlenecking his systems performance.

 

[Fjolsvid]

R
Well then, lets open this can of worms shall we? Nothing personal against the employee at PDX responsible for it, but recently i started playing with some mods that disable various parts of he AI, and replace their function with scripts. Imagine my suprise when said mods did what they promissed, and also made my late games much faster.

Point being, improving the AI does not only mean to make it able to work with the games systems, but also to optimize it. If some repeating event scripts can do a better job with les resrouce use, then something is seriously wrong with your AI.

Id honestly advice them to hire a dedicated AI programmer, be it full time or just per outsourcing contract.



The engine is 32bits, so it suffers a lot from any kind of bottleneck in your system. (And i better not go on about Intels x86 lottery, otherwise ill get swarmed by intel fanatics...)
I personally am running a Ryzen system, 800 stars are my standard size as i want lots and lots of empires and such. A buddy of mine is also running an i7 on a higher clock than i did on my ryzen, yet he always had more late game throttling due to his mainboard bottlenecking his systems performance.

I don't know your level of expertise with computers, but 32 bits do not have to do anything with the CPU.

I play on ancient Core 2 Duo at 2.13GHz, 4 GB Ram, 64 bit system at 800-1000 stars. 9-10 empires + 4 FEs.

 

[Kobrakai]

The more things Wiz does with Stellaris, the more I realise his vision of the game is totally opposed to mine Too bad for me, I guess, but the game keeps going away from what it once was... Nor necesarily bad, just different, too different for my taste

I feel exactly the same way, I'm completely against Wiz's vision for the game. I loved Stellaris once but the way things are going I won't even recognise it soon

I don't understand how one person is allowed to take over an established game and just change everything into the way they want it to be without caring who it upsets. The game may not be perfect and some people will always complain, but they are still playing the game. If Wiz goes ahead with these changes I don't think I will still play

 

[Fjolsvid]

@Madzai you mean this system?

God, that looks so ugly. The game info is nicely grouped but the buildings on the planet? Just visually terrible.

 

[Junkfist]

I think it would be funny if they suddenly decided to go in the other direction and gave us MORE tile planets.

Here's the mysterious triangle-tile planet!

Here's the robust hexagon-tile planet!

Here's the rare and elusive octagon-tile mixed with diamond-tile planet!

lol

 

[Madzai]

@Madzai you mean this system?

Yes, about GalCiv3.

God, that looks so ugly. The game info is nicely grouped but the buildings on the planet? Just visually terrible.

We are taking about system, not it's visual representation. GC GUI was "dated" even on release. Ofc, after ES\Stellaris, it looks even worse.