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lihp

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Yup, totally. Russia throwing towel after the fall of Moscow is fully backable from the other hand. Totally legit.

It actually is, since Stalin stayed in Moscow. Stalin dead or as POW is a potential game-changer.

Apart from that, you are not offering the impression that you actually read reliable sources about that time. Sorry, if I am mistaken.

1. I never claimed front was 1000 miles from Moscow. You get things wrong.

Quote from you in answer to my "40-200km from Moscow is damn close depending on view": "No, we are talking about circa 1000 km from city of Brest to Moscow itself.

In case you meant something compeltely different, you should elaborate.

...but for you the size of USSR is but an urban myth anyway.

I actually consider myself quite clear about it: that the size of the SU is far less impressive than "normal" maps suggest. In fact:
- in length of border, China has a longer border than the SU had.
- in amount of people, China and India outclassed the SU. They still do compared to former SU territory.
- in pure square miles the SU actually do "dwarf" any other country. Yet as soon as you take away Tundra, arctic and desert as well as impassable mountain areas (eg. Ural) and only stick to military viable areas of worth, its far less. What stands is esspecially the distance from East to West border - where I simply question on which were the historc VPs.

3. At the start of Barbarossa front was indeed maaaaany km away. As you may know, it started from the middle of WW2 Poland.

In November/December 1940 front was like 200-40km away from Moscow (depending on what you consider viable military units for attacking Moscow).

As for wrong claims about SU you can stop them cuz you are making them.

Spare me - you didnt proove me wrong in any point. Please start to read reliable sources.
 

lihp

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"As for the Sealion point, in reality it was impossible. The RN was too strong, the RAF was too strong, and even the British army was too strong for the amount of forces the Germans would be able to land and supply..."

What... you guys here are completly messing up the timing of the potential sealowe. It was an option taken into consideration before the air battle of britain when luftwaffe had air superiority over RAF. Thats why french navy was a key to this operation, germans had an air superiority at the time and the only concern of nazis was navy fleet. Failure of securing french vessels and unexpected kriegsmarine losses in the battle of norway were the main reasons of the sealowe beineg postponed. It was a critical threat nevertheless and throught the war it was the main concern of RAF which didnt want to engage too much into the continental actions to be able to defend British islands in case of a direct threat. Not to mention all the instuctions issued to British civilians like not to leave their homes in case of an invasion so they dont block the roads for the defensors (lesson learned in france) which were a paramount issue for potential defending forcest supply. Sealowe was a viable and dangerous threat up to the point where nazis lost the battle of britain and failed to secure french navy.

Just some facts about Sealion:
  1. Sealion was first considered on 9th of August 39 - the potential invasion of England.
  2. Raeder always made it clear that a landing includes a lot of risk and difficulties.
  3. "Weisung Nr 16" aka order 16 by the Fuhrer already opted Sealion as "only when neccessary".
  4. "Weisung Nr 17" aka order 17 by the Fuhrer already contradicted Sealion by ordering the aerial and convoy warfare aganst England.
  5. While preparations were done for sufficient landing boats, esspecially reconstruction of civilian vessels to fleet transports,... those preparations were already 2 months late compared to planning. Another reason why it was compeltely dropped.
  6. A fake invasion was also planned and prepared to mislead UK intel.
  7. RAF was never considered an issue since German Luftwaffe outclassed the RAF at that time (Luftwaffe made it clear upon request, that they dont see an issue there). Yet for a landing the distance was an issue from friendly airports to a fully operational air support of a landing.
Just because it is imho so true:
As St Vincent (former First Sea Lord) said: "I do not say they cannot come – I only say they cannot come by sea".

What was true for Napoleon, was also true for Hitler.
 

katanatan

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To get back on the initial topic.
There are many problems, that make operation sea lion impossible in this game.
The main factor: Broken national unity. All countrys, except japan, ussr, germany should have way lower NU, like 30%, but then the problem that some instant paradrop could annihilate the country. Manpower losses and (the notincluded) strategic (civilian) bombing should have bigger effects on NU. (Always hate when a colony ( canada eg ) fights till vancouver...
Operation Sealion was never a plan to secure a bridgehead and then creating a big front pushing through till scotland.
At that time, most brits (civilians) did not want the war (just like the french) and were happy to accept one of hitlers numerous status-ante-war-peace offers. Sea Lion would have had more of a psychlogical effect.
A plan to conquer britain was made impossible with dunkirk.

I say, that germany, if they were not forced to withdrew parts of their airforce to the balkans africa and the mainforce to russia (in preparation for barbarossa), they would achieve air superiority. In some documentary i watched, they quoted a british airforce general or minister, that said, if the bombing continued for 14 days, the RAF would cease to exist. Dont recall me on his name. In 1940, times were really dark for britain. Sadly you cannit loose a war in hoi 4 without loosing victory points.

Now onto other points.
I think the Royal Navy is stronger than it should be. The superior hit and run tactics and range of the german cruisers (and the at that time superior battle cruisers) are not / cant be implemented. Aside from the carrier limit, the fleet in hou 4 is just about stacking high.

Author of this post thinks stalin was not interested in eastern europe^^ he was earlier in stronger interest in eastern europe than hitler. Look up, when they asked germany in 1940/41 if they would intervene, if ussr attack bulgaria, romania, hungary and finland (for a second time!!!!!!!!). That was one of the main reasons why germany wanted to attack the ussr sooner than later so they had the surprise on their side.

I think, stockpiles would benefit this game.
Not only for the ressources we have today, but i desperately want two new ressources.
Coal (#1GER #2USA) and food. England after all mainly suffered from starvation due the sub-blockade. Food was the main reason for japan to conquer corea, man and men. You should actually SUPPLY your army in this game.

RAF overrated. VVS effort underrated, while it still was the main allied combat airforce with the USAs different airforces just being it, if you put their several tens of thousands of transportplanes and stratbombers to consideration (that doesnt count as combat aurforce though)
 
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Dalwin

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I actually consider myself quite clear about it: that the size of the SU is far less impressive than "normal" maps suggest. In fact:
- in length of border, China has a longer border than the SU had.
- in amount of people, China and India outclassed the SU. They still do compared to former SU territory.
- in pure square miles the SU actually do "dwarf" any other country. Yet as soon as you take away Tundra, arctic and desert as well as impassable mountain areas (eg. Ural) and only stick to military viable areas of worth, its far less. What stands is esspecially the distance from East to West border - where I simply question on which were the historc VPs.
Those facts too are somewhat misleading in the larger context. They are each individually true, but now lets integrate some of them shall we?

China and India lacked the industry to capitalize on their large populations.

The size of China's borders means little considering with whom they shared those borders.

Distance in the meaningful parts of Russia should be multiplied by the quality of the infrastructure. In practical application Moscow was much further away than the distance on a map might suggest.

Even more important is the location. Russia's proximity to the major European combatants multiplies their importance when statistically compared to China, India or even the USA.

-----------------

As far as Sea Lion is there still a discussion? Is it not agreed that the RN should be better able to prevent landings and the supply system should allow more in the way of blockading ports?

I also saw no direct reply to my assertion that in spite of it being extremely unlikely that Sea Lion could actually succeed, it's inclusion as a viable threat is important for the game design. It was a threat taken quite seriously at the time and one should be forced to take it seriously in game.
 

hkrommel

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We are talking about non historic case of events over here. You all say that if Germany would do X they would win, I oppose that. There is and there will never be a way to be sure, we can at best speculate so to say that I make "a ton of unqualified claims which really need some citation to be taken seriously" is at least wrong.

No, it's not. That's not how this works. You're extrapolating from real events without backup (in the case of diplomacy and peace talks, with other things you're fine), whereas I'm making no pretenses about speculation. You have a higher burden of proof. Not to mention the original rebuttal was quite the straw man.

As we can see on them map the most developed part of Soviet railways was already under German control, further east there were not that many multi-tracks.

Again, that doesn't actually refute what I've said. Sure the majority of multi-tracks weren't under Soviet control, but there would be fewer still under their control if Moscow is taken and the remaining infrastructure would lack a viable hub. Trains would have to go deep into the USSR just to turn around!

Also, just because there is one track it does not mean train goes only in one direction, far from that

Never said that, only that trains can only go one direction at a time over a stretch of track, otherwise you'll get head-on collisions.

Moscow was indeed very important when they were advancing.

Also when they were defending. Being able to supply the central theater directly from Moscow whereas the Germans were a long distance from Smolensk was a great help to the Soviets.

Even though Germans were better with their manpower, even when Soviets were haemorrhaging faster, it still wasn't enough.

It wasn't enough because the Germans stopped being better with their manpower. They threw it into the meat grinders of Typhoon and Stalingrad. Remember I'm advocating they forgo those in favor of a more conservative and deliberate plan.

They could but Blitzkrieg worked well for them so far. Why to risk the enemy getting organised when you still have the initiative? They were not stupid in their actions. There was just too much to chew through.

Typhoon and Stalingrad were pretty damn stupid. The Germans gained absolutely no advantage from Typhoon and in fact it may have cost them the war, at least in the east. Stalingrad definitively lost them the war in the east on their terms. They were overextensions motivated by hubris, tunnel vision, and political considerations that taxed their best formations disproportionately, resulting in chaotic retreats and routes which left formations severely underequipped and undermanned.

They didn't indeed but they were followed by German army. If they were not then who knows. What did the Germans realistically gain by pushing past Smolensk? Well, they were trying to win, to accomplish their goals. Now we know how it ended, they only saw disorganized enemy and goal almost within the reach. If they received some serious beating before it might have made the more cautious.

I've seen no serious source indicating that the German commanders thought the Soviets were beaten to the point they'd give up Moscow with any less of a fight than Stalingrad would eventually be. On the contrary, they thought they would fight tooth and nail for Moscow. Anyone without tunnel vision, overconfidence, and Hitler nipping at his heels would know that his forces (those being the Germans) didn't have enough forces to encircle or even seriously contest Moscow even if they could make it the additional distance from Smolensk. It was a pipe dream, and clearly so, from the beginning. As for the serious beating bit, the German forces were exhausted and their panzer formations at a fraction of their optimal strength. The Wehrmacht was in no position to push on but they did anyways, with disastrous results.

I say, that germany, if they were not forced to withdrew parts of their airforce to the balkans africa and the mainforce to russia (in preparation for barbarossa) they would achieve air superiority. In some documentary, they quoted a british airforce general or minister, that said, if the bombing continued for 14 days, the RAF would cease to exist.

That's actually untrue. The Germans were losing pilots at a rate that they couldn't keep up, and British aircraft production surpassed Germany's besides. German pilots, when shot down, landed in England or the Channel. In either case they're dead or a POW. British pilots, when shot down, landed in the same areas but would be dead, wounded, or get back into the air as soon as possible (in some cases pilots were back in the air a few hours after they were shot down).

I think the Royal Navy is stronger than it should be. The superior hit and run tactics and range of the german cruiser are / cant be implemented.

The problem is that those tactics are useless in the Channel. The place was full of mines, coastal defense guns, patrolling aircraft, and RN ships. That's why the Germans took the northern route to get the vast majority of their ships and submarines out to the Atlantic proper.
 
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lihp

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Those facts too are somewhat misleading in the larger context. They are each individually true, but now lets integrate some of them shall we?

China and India lacked the industry to capitalize on their large populations.
<snip>

We agree on most - my post was actually to put size in relation. Bottom line from my side: land size never made Barbarossa impossible - not at all.

Apart from that, India actually capitalized on its population. More than 2Mio Indian soldiers in WW2.
 

lihp

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I've seen no serious source indicating that the German commanders thought the Soviets were beaten to the point they'd give up Moscow with any less of a fight than Stalingrad would eventually be. On the contrary, they thought they would fight tooth and nail for Moscow.

Always a pleasure reading your posts. Apart from that the Octobre 41 press conference claimed somethign along the line of "almost won" reaffirming the German population the war in the east could be over and won by christmas 41.
 

Dalwin

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We agree on most - my post was actually to put size in relation. Bottom line from my side: land size never made Barbarossa impossible - not at all.

Apart from that, India actually capitalized on its population. More than 2Mio Indian soldiers in WW2.
More than 2 million, but yet your facts correctly said that their population was higher than Russia's. Yet Russia fielded a great many more than that, including if I am not mistaken, 800k women mostly in various support roles.

To make matters worse, since my point was that India did not have the industry to capitalize on her own population is the fact that she didn't. Wasn't much of the equipment for those forces manufactured elsewhere? To imply otherwise is to put India closer to being in the same league with Russia militarily which it certainly was not.
 

lihp

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More than 2 million, but yet your facts correctly said that their population was higher than Russia's. Yet Russia fielded a great many more than that, including if I am not mistaken, 800k women mostly in various support roles.

To make matters worse, since my point was that India did not have the industry to capitalize on her own population is the fact that she didn't. Wasn't much of the equipment for those forces manufactured elsewhere? To imply otherwise is to put India closer to being in the same league with Russia militarily which it certainly was not.

The India remark was just about to "not forget" India. 2 Million soldiers is sizeable and made a difference in WW2. And yes, you are right on your points.
 

lihp

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VVS effort underrated, while it still was the main allied combat airforce with the USAs different airforces just being it, if you put their several tens of thousands of transportplanes and stratbombers to consideration (that doesnt count as combat aurforce though)

VVS?
 

hkrommel

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Always a pleasure reading your posts. Apart from that the Octobre 41 press conference claimed somethign along the line of "almost won" reaffirming the German population the war in the east could be over and won by christmas 41.

So I'm not sure if you're sarcastically disagreeing or not (internet sarcasm rule) but in case you are, the propaganda told to the public and internal conversations within the military are very different things. I'm referring to the latter.
 

REDDQ

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It wasn't enough because the Germans stopped being better with their manpower. They threw it into the meat grinders of Typhoon and Stalingrad. Remember I'm advocating they forgo those in favor of a more conservative and deliberate plan.

Fine, if you see the way to win maybe there was one.
 

egslim

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I think the Royal Navy is stronger than it should be. The superior hit and run tactics and range of the german cruisers (and the at that time superior battle cruisers) are not / cant be implemented.
"Hit and run" is an attacker's tactic.

To cover Sealion, the Kriegsmarine needs to defend its transports - which are too slow to run away.

Apart from the disparity in number of ships, especially after losses in Norway, the Kriegsmarine also has insufficient trained personel to man both its fighting ships and the transports.

And the RAF? Fighter Command always had a Plan B: Withdraw its fighters to the Midlands - out of range of the Me 109's. Rest & recover, rejoin the fight when Sealion starts.
 

Dalwin

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"Hit and run" is an attacker's tactic.

.

Tell that to the Brits in 1777. Then again they did tend to say that we cheated.

Hit and run in any era is an aggressive tactic but most often it is conducted by the Strategic defender because their forces are not powerful enough for a more traditional offense. I disagree with characterizing it as an attacker's tactic.
 

Dalwin

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The Viet Cong and the PRC from the Korean War begs to differ.
Not really. The VC used such tactics because they were outnumbered and outgunned.

How do you see the strategic situation of VC vs USA as all that different from USA vs Britain in 1777? Militarily the two are very similar once you leave out all the political and philosophical differences.

If you are saying the VC were the attackers then so were the American colonials. Don't confuse VC with NVA. They are very different,
 

lihp

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So I'm not sure if you're sarcastically disagreeing or not (internet sarcasm rule) but in case you are, the propaganda told to the public and internal conversations within the military are very different things. I'm referring to the latter.

No sarcasm at all. I do enjoy reading your posts alot, same to @Dalwin and some others.
 

Misaka_Complex

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Not really. The VC used such tactics because they were outnumbered and outgunned.

How do you see the strategic situation of VC vs USA as all that different from USA vs Britain in 1777? Militarily the two are very similar once you leave out all the political and philosophical differences.

If you are saying the VC were the attackers then so were the American colonials. Don't confuse VC with NVA. They are very different,

The terrain was very much different. You didn't have huge bamboo jungles with searing temperatures, contagious diseases such as malaria spreading across US ranks and such an equipment attrition due to jungle conditions during 1777. The VC were also the attackers because both the NVA and the VC worked for the same Communist government operating under the same command structure. The VC were insurgents who operated in the South but their personnel were trained in the North and sent south via the Ho Chi Min trail.
 

lihp

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Apart from the disparity in number of ships, especially after losses in Norway, the Kriegsmarine also has insufficient trained personel to man both its fighting ships and the transports.

Where do you got that from? Preparation for Sealion was actually underway, including rebuilding of ships. There was no report I know of listing the lack of trained personell as an issue.

Please state a source.

And the RAF? Fighter Command always had a Plan B: Withdraw its fighters to the Midlands - out of range of the Me 109's. Rest & recover, rejoin the fight when Sealion starts.

Same here - source please.
 

lihp

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The terrain was very much different. You didn't have huge bamboo jungles with searing temperatures, contagious diseases such as malaria spreading across US ranks and such an equipment attrition due to jungle conditions during 1777. The VC were also the attackers because both the NVA and the VC worked for the same Communist government operating under the same command structure. The VC were insurgents who operated in the South but their personnel were trained in the North and sent south via the Ho Chi Min trail.

@Misaka_Complex @Dalwin - you two ... maybe you are mixing totally unrelated stuff up? I mean jungle guerilla (militia) tactic vs naval warfare of similarly equipped oponents, where one opponent largely outgunned the other...

@Misaka_Complex and then insiting on that comparison?