• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

lihp

Lt. General
55 Badges
Apr 8, 2014
1.266
571
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
Far from it. Even if they could take Soviet cities (already mentioned Napoleon did, good for him), even if they could take oil fields the war was lost. It would just take way longer. With every kilometer taken logistics being that much harder and resistance fiercer. And losses are piling up. They just didn't have the manpower to win.

Just the numbers:
Army/Axis
Author
Glantz/Meltjuchow
Soldiers
4.733.990/4.306.800
Tanks 3.612/4.171
Airplanes 2.937/4.846
Large guns 12.686/42.601

Red Army
Author Glantz
Meltjuchow
Soldiers
2.780.000 3.289.851
Tanks 11.000 15.687
Airplanes 9.917 10.743
Large guns 42.872 59.787

By October 1941 this completely changed: More than 2/3 of above Red Army soldiers POWs, Red Army forces scattered, front ruptured over a length of 400km.

In HOI speak: 3 large pockets created until Nov 41 and succesfully cleared with a total of 100+ division surrendered/scattered/destroyed, while app. 40+ divisions remained (German AI worked at that time). All this with low losses (except on the tank side, where eg. the southern tank forces were close to non existant after pocketing and clearing the SU army).
 

lihp

Lt. General
55 Badges
Apr 8, 2014
1.266
571
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
If there's one thing that is far, far, far, far too easy in the land war in HOI, it's taking cities. If someone did not want you to take a city, they could turn it into a meat grinder that turned whole armies into piles of corpses. Meanwhile, in HOI, you can simply waltz in and take it in a few hours by having a second division attack the city.

Same goes for terrain impact as well as weather impact. Since these shortcomings also apply to naval warfare, we are actually back on topic ;)
 

BlackTemblak

Private
20 Badges
Feb 3, 2014
18
98
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines
Germans sealowe operation was perceived as a real threat even by British. The key element for its success was French navy which could get into nazi hands after french surrender. This is why royal navy was pursuing French vessels across the world and sinking all that refused to give up to British. They sank lots of ships and there were real French casualties if they didn't want to surrender to royal navy.
 

Telenil

Lt. General
53 Badges
May 10, 2015
1.541
1.531
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
As others have mentionned, the problem with Sea Lion was the naval and air part. Even a small part of the German army would have rolled over British defenders, for the good reason that the British relied on their fleet, not their army, for defense.

More specifically, the German could easily have thrown several divisions into England: sail during the night, storm the poorly defended beaches in the morning. The problem was, what do you do once the bulk of the Royal Navy reaches your landing zone and starts sinking the convoys that were supposed to bring reinforcements, food and ammunition?

Planes are very effective at sinking large ships, so the Luftwaffe could perhaps provide cover if the Royal Air Force was beaten. Maybe. With no navy to speak of and no air superiority, Sea Lion would likely have ended with German troops forced to surrender due to lack of supplies.
 
Last edited:

demon72

First Lieutenant
1 Badges
Apr 7, 2017
261
130
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
As others have mentionned, the problem with Sea Lion was the naval and air part. Even a small part of the German army would have rolled over British defenders, for the good reason that the British relied on their fleet, not their army, for defense.

More specifically, the German could easily have thrown a division or two into England: sail during the night, storm the poorly defended beaches in the morning. The problem was, what do you do once the bulk of the Royal Navy reaches your landing zone and starts sinking the convoys that were supposed to bring reinforcements, food and ammunition?

Planes are very effective at sinking large ships, so the Luftwaffe could perhaps provide cover if the Royal Air Force was beaten. Maybe. With no navy to speak of and no air superiority, Sea Lion would probably have ended with German troops forced to surrender due to lack of supplies.


the plan for Operation Seelöwe was

- lay minefields and positioning submarines to keep RN away from the channel
- transport troops and supplies only by night across the channel

...surprisingly numbers show that DR has enough ship capacities in place for 2 complete armies to cross the channel (a 3rd army should stay as reserve in France)
 

REDDQ

Colonel
76 Badges
Jul 2, 2013
931
1.965
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Knights of Honor
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
Imho there is a simple truth to Stalin staying in Moscow: with Moscow fallen also, a surrender would be imminent. So basically we are talking about something like 40 - 200 km (depending on the view). Thats damn close....

No, we are talking about circa 1000 km from city of Brest to Moscow itself. The notion that the loss of Moscow would somehow trigger surrender is, well, probably was, wishful thinking of the Heer. But the notion is is neither supported by history of Russia or even by logic. I mean, why on Earth they would do that? If you loose smth you try to retake it.



Always depends on how you define "biggest". If you define it by length of border or amount of people, then it is not Russia...

And in square kilometres it is, and I am pretty sure during WW2 it had longest border and more people than Germany.

I doubt a SU surrender would have required jetting all the way to Perm...

Yup, they would never surrender.

Just the numbers:
Army/Axis
Author
Glantz/Meltjuchow
Soldiers
4.733.990/4.306.800
Tanks 3.612/4.171
Airplanes 2.937/4.846
Large guns 12.686/42.601

Red Army
Author Glantz
Meltjuchow
Soldiers
2.780.000 3.289.851
Tanks 11.000 15.687
Airplanes 9.917 10.743
Large guns 42.872 59.787

By October 1941 this completely changed: More than 2/3 of above Red Army soldiers POWs, Red Army forces scattered, front ruptured over a length of 400km.

In HOI speak: 3 large pockets created until Nov 41 and succesfully cleared with a total of 100+ division surrendered/scattered/destroyed, while app. 40+ divisions remained (German AI worked at that time). All this with low losses (except on the tank side, where eg. the southern tank forces were close to non existant after pocketing and clearing the SU army).
I am pretty sure those are not numbers from the end of WW2 :) Soviets replaced losses, Germans couldn't keep up. And no wonder, population wise Soviet Union had twice the numbers of Germany. In HoI speak, no more manpower for some.
 

hkrommel

Resident Contrarian
69 Badges
Feb 27, 2014
4.229
2.142
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
No, we are talking about circa 1000 km from city of Brest to Moscow itself. The notion that the loss of Moscow would somehow trigger surrender is, well, probably was, wishful thinking of the Heer. But the notion is is neither supported by history of Russia or even by logic. I mean, why on Earth they would do that? If you loose smth you try to retake it.





And in square kilometres it is, and I am pretty sure during WW2 it had longest border and more people than Germany.



Yup, they would never surrender.


I am pretty sure those are not numbers from the end of WW2 :) Soviets replaced losses, Germans couldn't keep up. And no wonder, population wise Soviet Union had twice the numbers of Germany. In HoI speak, no more manpower for some.


You're making a ton of unqualified claims which really need some citation to be taken seriously.

Total Soviet surrender is unnecessary for German victory, for one. The Soviets were making peace overtures as late as 1943 (by that point they favored the Soviets but still).

Taking (or even seriously contesting) Moscow would cripple the Soviets' ability to resist in European Russia, plain and simple. Beyond the obvious importance for morale and government, Moscow was the main rail and communications hub. You just couldn't get enough supplies to the Soviet army without Moscow, it was impossible. If you cut the rail lines at Moscow the Soviets *have* to fall back or watch their army fall apart.

As for the manpower bit you seem to be forgetting that by the end of the war the Soviets were bled dry as well. They had to conscript too many people out of industry and agriculture resulting in massive food shortages after the war when the amount of imported food fell drastically. The Soviets pushed themselves to the absolute limit. Furthermore, manpower itself means little. What matters more are logistics and local superiority.

As for what @lihp is saying, of course the Germans weren't close to winning after Barbarossa. Indeed, their reckless advance after a certain point is what killed them in the long run. Had they learned from Napoleon's mistake and stopped at Smolensk (why does nobody stop at Smolensk?) they would have had a much better supply situation, wouldn't waste lives in a mad dash towards Moscow which, even if they reached, they wouldn't be able to seriously contest, and could resume the offensive the following spring with their more experienced officers and NCOs not nearly as dead as they were in reality, their panzer forces and the Luftwaffe in much better shape, and they would be in an all-around better situation. They would also have more room to maneuver since a beeline for Moscow would be unnecessary.

As for the Sealion point, in reality it was impossible. The RN was too strong, the RAF was too strong, and even the British army was too strong for the amount of forces the Germans would be able to land and supply, even if they could manage that in the first place. Of course it was a threat but that doesn't mean it would be anywhere close to successful. That said, there are plenty of steps the player can take to rectify the situation in-game, but all the same the British should prioritize defending the isles more than I've seen them do.
 

War Emblem

Captain
12 Badges
Dec 5, 2005
390
53
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
I would never base an opinion on one source. Just because one author writes something you take it as gospel? That is very flawed logic for both the student of history and game designer. Much has already been said in this thread I'll just make a few quick thoughts:

- RN was actually in pretty bad shape at the start of WW2.
- Germany did not expect to defeat in France so fast so they never even considered Sea Lion in 40. Us, as players have historical guidelines to Monday Morning QB our wars. We expect to defeat Poland/France/Low Countries quickly. Germany had no such knowledge. A player has an advantage in the sense that he can prepare for Sea Lion in 37 expecting he will defeat continental Europe quickly. Had historical Germany prepared for Sea Lion in 37 you have no way of saying they could not have taken London (which is all they would have needed to take after the fall of France to force a peace). Put it this way, if you had a time travel machine and wanted to help Germany you could go back and tell Germany to build naval bombers and a task force to open up the sea lanes, destroy the British at Dunkirk and use the Luftwaffe to clear the English Channel while the naval bombers and your invasion task force sweeps away the RN. Germany lands much more than a few divisions then. Well players have just this time machine in HOI4 able to implement these strategies.
- Now I agree, a player doesn't even have to go into this level of detail to land in England now, but that is due to the new naval invasion mechanics. Yes, it kind of sucks for GB but it is a HUGE improvement to the game as a whole. In previous HOI games the AI was simply incapable of launching any sort of amphibious invasions. Now they do them all the time and whether a player views them as dangerous or a nuisance they are effective.
- I don't believe in any game play adjustments that prohibit players from doing things because someone views them as 'impossible'. Most people don't agree with your perspective, people often forget this. Just because YOU want things one way doesn't mean EVERYONE wants things one way. If you simply don't want to allow invasions of England than play MP games and make a house rule where Germany can't invade England. Problem solved.
 

Winstons

Corporal
11 Badges
Feb 25, 2011
25
4
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II
  • 500k Club
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III
No, we are talking about circa 1000 km from city of Brest to Moscow itself. The notion that the loss of Moscow would somehow trigger surrender is, well, probably was, wishful thinking of the Heer. But the notion is is neither supported by history of Russia or even by logic. I mean, why on Earth they would do that? If you loose smth you try to retake it.

On his summons back to Moscow from Leningrad in order to help organise the defence of the capital, Zhukov claims he overheard Stalin instructing Beria to put peace feelers out if the capital fell. Whether this is true or not, we will never know.
 

REDDQ

Colonel
76 Badges
Jul 2, 2013
931
1.965
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Knights of Honor
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
You're making a ton of unqualified claims which really need some citation to be taken seriously.

No more unqualified than Soviets throwing rifles after the fall of Moscow.

Total Soviet surrender is unnecessary for German victory, for one. The Soviets were making peace overtures as late as 1943 (by that point they favored the Soviets but still).

Dunno what do you mean here.

Taking (or even seriously contesting) Moscow would cripple the Soviets' ability to resist in European Russia, plain and simple. Beyond the obvious importance for morale and government, Moscow was the main rail and communications hub. You just couldn't get enough supplies to the Soviet army without Moscow, it was impossible. If you cut the rail lines at Moscow the Soviets *have* to fall back or watch their army fall apart.

I would be a blow definitely, just not a fatal one. Moscow was indeed an important transport hub, but mostly useful when Soviets were advancing later on. If you look at the map of Soviet railways...
railway_SSSR_schema.jpg
...and then compare it to the map with Soviet land taken...
tHRcO.jpg
...it is clear that Moscow could by bypassed by quite some extent. Even supplies from Archangelsk could be send around. Now, even though Germans did not take Moscow, their armies were standing on top of direct Moscow-Stalingrad line. Did it help?

As for the manpower bit you seem to be forgetting that by the end of the war the Soviets were bled dry as well. They had to conscript too many people out of industry and agriculture resulting in massive food shortages after the war when the amount of imported food fell drastically. The Soviets pushed themselves to the absolute limit. Furthermore, manpower itself means little. What matters more are logistics and local superiority.

Indeed they were dry but in much better shape than Germans. If opponent has way bigger reserves than you it is clear you are ad disadvantage, that's why Germans tried to win as fast as possible, to exploit their initial success.

As for what @lihp is saying, of course the Germans weren't close to winning after Barbarossa. Indeed, their reckless advance after a certain point is what killed them in the long run. Had they learned from Napoleon's mistake and stopped at Smolensk (why does nobody stop at Smolensk?) they would have had a much better supply situation, wouldn't waste lives in a mad dash towards Moscow which, even if they reached, they wouldn't be able to seriously contest, and could resume the offensive the following spring with their more experienced officers and NCOs not nearly as dead as they were in reality, their panzer forces and the Luftwaffe in much better shape, and they would be in an all-around better situation. They would also have more room to maneuver since a beeline for Moscow would be unnecessary.

Or Soviets would get their wits back much sooner and regain initiative or be better prepared and thus resistance Germans encountered even harsher. As I mentioned they were exploiting their success, there is no clear are good answer here, just life.

As for the Sealion point, in reality it was impossible. The RN was too strong, the RAF was too strong, and even the British army was too strong for the amount of forces the Germans would be able to land and supply, even if they could manage that in the first place. Of course it was a threat but that doesn't mean it would be anywhere close to successful. That said, there are plenty of steps the player can take to rectify the situation in-game, but all the same the British should prioritize defending the isles more than I've seen them do.

Pretty impossible indeed.
 

REDDQ

Colonel
76 Badges
Jul 2, 2013
931
1.965
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Knights of Honor
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
On his summons back to Moscow from Leningrad in order to help organise the defence of the capital, Zhukov claims he overheard Stalin instructing Beria to put peace feelers out if the capital fell. Whether this is true or not, we will never know.

Sure thing ;) As we will never know whether he was actually gonna accept defeat or was just planning to play for time. It never hurts to ask.
 

egslim

Colonel
44 Badges
Apr 1, 2006
1.129
169
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
As others have mentionned, the problem with Sea Lion was the naval and air part. Even a small part of the German army would have rolled over British defenders, for the good reason that the British relied on their fleet, not their army, for defense.
As St Vincent (former First Sea Lord) said: "I do not say they cannot come – I only say they cannot come by sea".

What was true for Napoleon, was also true for Hitler.
 

hkrommel

Resident Contrarian
69 Badges
Feb 27, 2014
4.229
2.142
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
No more unqualified than Soviets throwing rifles after the fall of Moscow.

Your point? I never said anything like that.

Dunno what do you mean here.

Unconditional surrender is unnecessary. It was extremely unlikely that the Germans could have accomplished that anyways (I'm loathe to say "impossible" because who knows what could have happened?). I'm kind of waiting for Secret Master to swoop down and ask "what does a defeated Soviet Union and victorious Germany look like?" Basically my point is that you're not wrong in saying that it was near impossible for the Soviets to surrender unconditionally, but as far as a peace settlement that favors Germany goes there's plenty within the realm of possibility, and even probability in certain scenarios.

...it is clear that Moscow could by bypassed by quite some extent. Even supplies from Archangelsk could be send around. Now, even though Germans did not take Moscow, their armies were standing on top of direct Moscow-Stalingrad line. Did it help?

Ah, but you're ignoring the capacity the rail lines could take. The best lines were through Moscow, as you could see from the map. If you can only have trains running one direction on the tracks at a time compared to two or three going different directions, it's a whole different ball game when it comes to supply. The Soviets were already strained as far as rail capacity went, and compromising the Moscow hub would be crippling if not fatal to defensive efforts where they stood at the end of Barbarossa and especially Fall Blau.

As for Stalingrad it most certainly did help, it just wasn't decisive. It seems like you're not finding the middle ground here, something doesn't have to be decisive to help victory, and in fact I would argue that what usually is decisive is just the culmination of things helpful to victory, it's just the "straw that breaks the camel's back."

Indeed they were dry but in much better shape than Germans. If opponent has way bigger reserves than you it is clear you are ad disadvantage, that's why Germans tried to win as fast as possible, to exploit their initial success.

Yes and no. You're certainly correct about the manpower point but remember that the Soviets hemorrhaged manpower much faster than the Germans until they got their act together tactically in 1943. This was compounded by the Germans having their equipment decimated. A Panzer division missing half its panzers is going to lose men a lot faster than a Panzer division with 75% of its panzers.

As for why the Germans tried to win as fast as possible, that's a large combination of factors. Politically, Hitler and high command were pushing as hard as they could to accomplish Barbarossa's objectives, Guderian was reckless, Hitler was obsessed with capturing Stalingrad, etc. More prudent generals who would have stopped along the Don-Smolensk-Leningrad line would have seen a much stronger Germany kicking off 1942. Winter attrition would be much less because the Germans could ship winter gear instead of ammunition for Typhoon. They could dig in so defensively they would be much more effective. They wouldn't lose massive amounts of equipment in reckless drives towards Moscow followed by disorganized retreat. Their officer corps, particularly the NCO corps, would remain intact. Given how well the Germans did during the first bit of 1942 this would just compound that success. Perhaps the effort devoted to Typhoon would be diverted to Leningrad? Either way it doesn't just come down to manpower, it's more how you use that manpower. The Germans were much, much better at using their manpower early on.

Or Soviets would get their wits back much sooner and regain initiative or be better prepared and thus resistance Germans encountered even harsher. As I mentioned they were exploiting their success, there is no clear are good answer here, just life.

But they didn't in reality. What did the Germans realistically gain by pushing past Smolensk? What did the Soviets lose? It seems to me that a disorganized, depleted Soviet Army with poor tactical and operational knowledge (at the time) with political powers driving them to counterattack against a prepared and well-supplied German line in the mud and later the infamous winter would leave the Germans with even more of an advantage. Certainly if the Soviets held back and didn't do anything they could recover but they'd still be facing a much stronger and well-positioned adversary.
 

Dalwin

Field Marshal
48 Badges
Aug 11, 2003
11.303
6.150
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Magicka
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Darkest Hour
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • Crusader Kings II
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
I think that Russia might have surrendered if Moscow had fallen. I think that Stalin's will was nearly broken and that he might have buckled after losing Moscow or that if he were killed then his successor might have been willing to offer terms.

I agree that unconditional surrender was very unlikely. I could see perhaps a settlement which ceded to Germany the areas of Eastern Poland, the Baltic States and the Ukraine up to but not including Kiev and Dnepropetrovsk.
 

lihp

Lt. General
55 Badges
Apr 8, 2014
1.266
571
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
I would never base an opinion on one source. Just because one author writes something you take it as gospel? That is very flawed logic for both the student of history and game designer. Much has already been said in this thread I'll just make a few quick thoughts:

- RN was actually in pretty bad shape at the start of WW2.

Id like to see that one reliable source ;) - bad shape compared to... what? Its not even an objective evaluation.

- Germany did not expect to defeat in France so fast so they never even considered Sea Lion in 40.
Thats not entirely correct ;) - Sealion was first considered 1939, before Poland.

<snip bollocks>
- Now I agree, a player doesn't even have to go into this level of detail to land in England now, but that is due to the new naval invasion mechanics. Yes, it kind of sucks for GB but it is a HUGE improvement to the game as a whole. In previous HOI games the AI was simply incapable of launching any sort of amphibious invasions. Now they do them all the time and whether a player views them as dangerous or a nuisance they are effective.

No, no and no. Apart from that, do you even play HOI? Eg. HOI3 AI being unable for effective naval invasions?

HOI4 invasions effective? Yes, but only if you dont cosndier them as a possibility and forget to garrison your backyard.

- I don't believe in any game play adjustments that prohibit players from doing things because someone views them as 'impossible'. Most people don't agree with your perspective, people often forget this.

I fail to see the part of completly prohibiting it. Instead its too easy compared to history - far too easy. Then again you also consider AI naval invasions in HOI4 effective... I dont.

So we simply dont agree :)
 

lihp

Lt. General
55 Badges
Apr 8, 2014
1.266
571
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
No more unqualified than Soviets throwing rifles after the fall of Moscow.
<snip>

You write too many things unable to back them up. Thats unqualified.

Apart from that you claimed the front 1000 miles away from Moscow before, but yet supply a map afterwards of 41 front showing the complete opposite.

Seriously apparent national Russian pride has nothign to do here in this thread, neither does German national pride or any other.

In the end its about Sealion in HOI not fitting to its historic difficulty and not about making obviously wrong claims about SU in 41.
 

REDDQ

Colonel
76 Badges
Jul 2, 2013
931
1.965
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Knights of Honor
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
You write too many things unable to back them up. Thats unqualified.

Yup, totally. Russia throwing towel after the fall of Moscow is fully backable from the other hand. Totally legit.

Apart from that you claimed the front 1000 miles away from Moscow before, but yet supply a map afterwards of 41 front showing the complete opposite.

1. I never claimed front was 1000 miles from Moscow. You get things wrong.
2. I claimed that from Brest to Moscow there is about 1000 KILOMETRES. Not really a claim, that's a fact. Which was what German army had to cross , but for you the size of USSR is but an urban myth anyway.
3. At the start of Barbarossa front was indeed maaaaany km away. As you may know, it started from the middle of WW2 Poland.

Seriously apparent national Russian pride has nothign to do here in this thread, neither does German national pride or any other.

That I agree.

In the end its about Sealion in HOI not fitting to its historic difficulty and not about making obviously wrong claims about SU in 41.

HoI is by design more of a simulation than historic representation of WW2 so I can spawn Luftwaffe that will take care of RAF with no problems, not to mention about Kriegsmarine. At least for the moment. As for wrong claims about SU you can stop them cuz you are making them.
 

BlackTemblak

Private
20 Badges
Feb 3, 2014
18
98
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines
"As for the Sealion point, in reality it was impossible. The RN was too strong, the RAF was too strong, and even the British army was too strong for the amount of forces the Germans would be able to land and supply..."

What... you guys here are completly messing up the timing of the potential sealowe. It was an option taken into consideration before the air battle of britain when luftwaffe had air superiority over RAF. Thats why french navy was a key to this operation, germans had an air superiority at the time and the only concern of nazis was navy fleet. Failure of securing french vessels and unexpected kriegsmarine losses in the battle of norway were the main reasons of the sealowe beineg postponed. It was a critical threat nevertheless and throught the war it was the main concern of RAF which didnt want to engage too much into the continental actions to be able to defend British islands in case of a direct threat. Not to mention all the instuctions issued to British civilians like not to leave their homes in case of an invasion so they dont block the roads for the defensors (lesson learned in france) which were a paramount issue for potential defending forcest supply. Sealowe was a viable and dangerous threat up to the point where nazis lost the battle of britain and failed to secure french navy.
 

lihp

Lt. General
55 Badges
Apr 8, 2014
1.266
571
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
If there's one thing that is far, far, far, far too easy in the land war in HOI, it's taking cities. If someone did not want you to take a city, they could turn it into a meat grinder that turned whole armies into piles of corpses. Meanwhile, in HOI, you can simply waltz in and take it in a few hours by having a second division attack the city.

Took me time to think and read about it.

Yes, I agree, city warfare is too easy in any HOI so far - including HOI4. Yet it is not that huge as your psot suggest (at least at first glance).

To reflect this effect, a city - depending on its size - should add something like 1-3 fortification levels. Alternatively triple dig-in speed. In fact this *minor* change would already make cities a "meat-grinder" as soon as there are sufficient friendly forces defending it.
 

dave1233

Lt. General
80 Badges
Jan 18, 2015
1.260
61
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
It was an option taken into consideration before the air battle of britain when luftwaffe had air superiority over RAF. Thats why french navy was a key to this operation, germans had an air superiority at the time and the only concern of nazis was navy fleet.
But prior to the battle of britain the RAF was pretty much intact so how did the luftwaffe have superiority over it?