Religious System based on Tenets

[Philthy]

I don't under stand why people feel like religion needs to be tacked onto this game

Because it is a trope in the genre, even if it isn't as pervasive as galactic-scale war. It's way too late in the development and as others have pointed out, doesn't make sense for governments that aren't spiritualist, but it's certainly not more out of place in space as an option than purging, slavery, and forced relocation.

 

[Elderotter]

The Following is only my Opinion:

"Religion" is More or Less the Faith, that One/More "Beings" (God/Gods) has/have created some Stuff, like the Space-Time and the Laws of Nature and the Matter-Energy (Humans for Example), whereas "Culture" is More or Less the Knowledge, that the created Stuff, like Humans, has created some other Stuff, like Languages or Musics or juristic Laws or Architectures ...

In primitive Civilisations, the "Religion" is More or Less the Center of their Life ...
But, Step by Step, in advanced Civilisations, the Faith ("Religion") vanishes - More and More - the Knowledge ("Culture") till to the Point, in Which the created Stuff, like Humans, thinks, that They are Gods, too ...

My Point is ...
We can have a "Religion" in historical Games with primitive Civilisations, like in Rome or CK or EU and barely in Games, like Victoria or HoI ...
But, I have big Problems, to have a forced "Religion" in a futuristic Game, like Stellaris.

Since the point was about Tenets, think of it not as a Religion as more of a Moral Code. Religion has a bad rap right now. Religions are, in my opinion, neutral in and of themselves. It is what people do to them, taking parts of them out of context, to achieve their goals that is the problem.

 

[Sarog]

They would be worshipping the aliens themselves, not their religion.

At which point the aliens say "no, we're just space slugs, let us tell you all about the great space tentacle". At which point certain humans think to themselves "wow, these slugs must be on to something, they are so advanced, time to listen and believe!"

You shouldn't assume alien religions would even be remotely close to human ones. The whole religion could be dedicated to secreting slime; humans cannot do that.

I assume we're dealing with aliens who can communicate, who have ideas and whose worship of the great space tentacle includes a certain ideology. If that's not true, then it isn't meaningfully "religion" in the context of the discussion. If secreting slime is comparable to prostrating on a prayer mat, it is religion - but just part of a much larger thing, and the rest of that larger thing can presumably be communicated in some manner.

Humans may not be able to secrete slime, and aliens may not be able to prostrate on a prayer mat or before icons. That's not the point though. The point is the shared ideology, values, superstitions, etc. that creates a shared identity that goes beyond tribal identity. If we made contact with aliens as-or-more advanced than ourselves, their beliefs would unavoidably impact our world and there would definitely be a sizeable chunk of people eager to listen to what they would have to teach us and adopt their wisdom.

 

[praftd]

Because it is a trope in the genre, even if it isn't as pervasive as galactic-scale war. It's way too late in the development and as others have pointed out, doesn't make sense for governments that aren't spiritualist, but it's certainly not more out of place in space as an option than purging, slavery, and forced relocation.

The problem is that it wouldn't really add anything meaningful to the game aside from a handful of modifiers. It just forces non-religous empires to deal with religous conversions.

Forcing unwilling players to deal with that is annoying. It's only fun for spiritualists. For everyone else it sucks.

In games like CK2, it is okay because religous is a slow spread and everyone has one. But in games like Stellaris, it doesn't really work because religion always end up spreading like the plague and you are forced to adopt one even if you want to be irreligous.

 

[Kayden_II]

Since the point was about Tenets

(Religious) Tenets - In the Case, Stellaris has a (forced) Feature, like "Tenets", You need the connected (forced) Feature of "Religion" ...
As pointed out by Others and Me - It is awkward for a futuristic Game, like Stellaris.

 

[Elderotter]

The problem is that it wouldn't really add anything meaningful to the game aside from a handful of modifiers. It just forces non-religous empires to deal with religous conversions.

Forcing unwilling players to deal with that is annoying. It's only fun for spiritualists. For everyone else it sucks.

In games like CK2, it is okay because religous is a slow spread and everyone has one. But in games like Stellaris, it doesn't really work because religion always end up spreading like the plague and you are forced to adopt one even if you want to be irreligous.

Ok, but that is the beauty of a Religious side. You will be forced to deal with religions.. pernicious little ones that spread and affect your pops. It isn't like that hasn't happened in our history many times. Think of it as one of the end game crisis that are already part of the game. I am not a very religious man, but I can see that religion has affected history and therefore will continue to do so in the future. To rule it out because it causes problems isn't reality-based. Religions will continue to be a thorn in the side of some governments and also re-invigorate others. There are the Fallen Empires also to add into this - the spread of a religion from one of the "newer" races could be a cause of them rising back up, either to eradicate it or because they found new energy because of it.

 

[praftd]

Ok, but that is the beauty of a Religious side. You will be forced to deal with religions.. pernicious little ones that spread and affect your pops. It isn't like that hasn't happened in our history many times. Think of it as one of the end game crisis that are already part of the game. I am not a very religious man, but I can see that religion has affected history and therefore will continue to do so in the future. To rule it out because it causes problems isn't reality-based. Religions will continue to be a thorn in the side of some governments and also re-invigorate others. There are the Fallen Empires also to add into this - the spread of a religion from one of the "newer" races could be a cause of them rising back up, either to eradicate it or because they found new energy because of it.

Why should players playing non-religous factions be forced to play as a religious faction?

I've played enough games like that to know the outcomes are always one of two things:

1.) Accept the religion
2.) Make your own religion and spread that instead so you aren't forced into their religion.

And both options suck for people who don't want to play the religous game.


It's bad game design and completey ruins the experience. Mechanics like this are only fun for the peole doing the spreading.

 

[Elderotter]

Why should players playing non-religous fations be forced to play as a religious faction?

I've played enough games like that to know the outcomes are aleays one of two things:

1.) Accept the religion
2.) Make your own religion and spread that instead so you aren't forced into their religion.

And both options suck for people who don't want to play the religous game.


It's bad game design and completey ruins the experience.

Paradox produces games with historical accuracy. Now in a game about the future this is rough, but knowing that Religion affects history it can be added in. As far as completely ruining the gameplay - not at all. An option to turn it on/off could be included. It merely represents an additional challenge. If dealing with that particular additional challenge is too much for you, turn it off. Others, myself included, might like that particular additional challenge, With an on/off switch both of us could be satisfied. See, I am sensitive to your needs, please show some to those of us, however large or small, who might appreciate that factor being included... most likely in a DLC.

 

[praftd]

Paradox produces games with historical accuracy. Now in a game about the future this is rough, but knowing that Religion affects history it can be added in. As far as completely ruining the gameplay - not at all. An option to turn it on/off could be included.

If a major game mechanic is so devisive that it requires a toggle just to be palpable, it shouldn't be implimented. Development could be focused elsewhere.

Not to meant a toggle wouldn't work for balance and complexity reasons.

It merely represents an additional challenge. If dealing with that particular additional challenge is too much for you, turn it off. Others, myself included, might like that particular additional challenge, With an on/off switch both of us could be satisfied. See, I am sensitive to your needs, please show some to those of us, however large or small, who might appreciate that factor being included... most likely in a DLC.

Uh, what challenge?

Purging all your settlements of religous pops or being forced to convert so you get your arbitrary +10% food bonus?

That isn't challenge, it is tedious.

Again, forcing players to be religous is bad game design.

You know what people will do? They will just create non-religous "religions" and just spread that in order counteract and nullify other religions. I've seen it done many times before. It's pointless and bad design.

 

[Philthy]

An option to turn it on and off could NOT be included as that requires ridiculous amounts of balancing. If it's a bonus to spiritualist empires that they lose out on without it, then it isn't balanced for the whole game. Whether you like it or not, it is either in or not, whether or not it plays into your particular space civilization.

Here is the thing. If you reduce it to tenants, then why not just use Ethos? That's already in the game. Maybe there needs to be more axis, but it seems pretty developed as is.

 

[praftd]

An option to turn it on and off could NOT be included as that requires ridiculous amounts of balancing. If it's a bonus to spiritualist empires that they lose out on without it, then it isn't balanced for the whole game. Whether you like it or not, it is either in or not, whether or not it plays into your particular space civilization.

Here is the thing. If you reduce it to tenants, then why not just use Ethos? That's already in the game. Maybe there needs to be more axis, but it seems pretty developed as is.

Exactly, if something like this was added, it would affect EVERYBODY, there wouldn't be a way to toggle it on and off.

 

[chaostk]

One idea I got from what was posted in the other thread, that could also tie in religions but be something that work for all kind of different ethos:

In an future DLC we may get intergalactic organizations, that aren't tied to one specific empire or empires,and may not even have an specific system or planets they own. But they exist and influence things on the universe, and may be created by events / choices / researches by the empires around mid-game. They could have their own ethos (possibly one for each ethos) and come in different flavors like a big company that affects economy / trade in the galaxy, paramilitary ones, scientific ones, and related to this thread, religious ones, between others. Then empires could let them access to their empire or not, with positive and negative choices for both, also adding more diplomacy options between empires.

 

[Elderotter]

If a major game mechanic is so devisive that it requires a toggle just to be palpable, it shouldn't be implimented. Development could be focused elsewhere.

Not to meant a toggle wouldn't work for balance and complexity reasons.



Uh, what challenge?

Purging all your settlements of religous pops or being forced to convert so you get your arbitrary +10% food bonus?

That isn't challenge, it is tedious.

Again, forcing players to be religous is bad game design.

You know what people will do? They will just create non-religous "religions" and just spread that in order counteract and nullify other religions. I've seen it done many times before. It's pointless and bad design.

obviously you don't care about anything other than your deeply held opinion. I disagree with you. so be it. I hope the devs put it in. Not going to waste time on you any more. Sorry you feel the way you do.

 

[Smiles_]

One idea I got from what was posted in the other thread, that could also tie in religions but be something that work for all kind of different ethos:

In an future DLC we may get intergalactic organizations, that aren't tied to one specific empire or empires,and may not even have an specific system or planets they own. But they exist and influence things on the universe, and may be created by events / choices / researches by the empires around mid-game. They could have their own ethos (possibly one for each ethos) and come in different flavors like a big company that affects economy / trade in the galaxy, paramilitary ones, scientific ones, and related to this thread, religious ones, between others. Then empires could let them access to their empire or not, with positive and negative choices for both, also adding more diplomacy options between empires.

I like.


Smiles

 

[Kordishal]

One idea I got from what was posted in the other thread, that could also tie in religions but be something that work for all kind of different ethos:

In an future DLC we may get intergalactic organizations, that aren't tied to one specific empire or empires,and may not even have an specific system or planets they own. But they exist and influence things on the universe, and may be created by events / choices / researches by the empires around mid-game. They could have their own ethos (possibly one for each ethos) and come in different flavors like a big company that affects economy / trade in the galaxy, paramilitary ones, scientific ones, and related to this thread, religious ones, between others. Then empires could let them access to their empire or not, with positive and negative choices for both, also adding more diplomacy options between empires.

Yeah this is part of the reason why I would like religion to be in the game. At the beginning they would be tied to a single empire, but eventually as the game progress into mid-game the religions will spread into other empires and eventually will become forces of their own.

 

[Simaimch]

Humans may not be able to secrete slime, and aliens may not be able to prostrate on a prayer mat or before icons. That's not the point though. The point is the shared ideology, values, superstitions, etc. that creates a shared identity that goes beyond tribal identity. If we made contact with aliens as-or-more advanced than ourselves, their beliefs would unavoidably impact our world and there would definitely be a sizeable chunk of people eager to listen to what they would have to teach us and adopt their wisdom.

Right. And that's already represented with ethos. I don't see why it has to be more complicated than that. Maybe a pop changes its ethos because it changes its religion. The game doesn't tell us the reason in detail and I think that's a good thing. Religion doesn't need to be highlighted by having it's own functionality in a game about science fiction.

 

[Ezumiyr]

Like I said in the other thread, I think that religions aren't a bad idea.

But they have to make sense in Stellaris context. That is, who cares what you think about the after life or if you believe there is a heaven ?
Also, I think it's preferable that they add something to the game, otherwise it would probably be too redundant. Since this thread doesn't seem to add anything to the debate (why creating a new thread by the way ?), here is a link to my suggestions on the other thread (the creator of this thread answered page 3) : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...gion-in-stellaris.919764/page-2#post-20956192

 

[Caspoi]

If a major game mechanic is so devisive that it requires a toggle just to be palpable, it shouldn't be implimented. Development could be focused elsewhere.

Not to meant a toggle wouldn't work for balance and complexity reasons.



Uh, what challenge?

Purging all your settlements of religous pops or being forced to convert so you get your arbitrary +10% food bonus?

That isn't challenge, it is tedious.

Again, forcing players to be religous is bad game design.

You know what people will do? They will just create non-religous "religions" and just spread that in order counteract and nullify other religions. I've seen it done many times before. It's pointless and bad design.

First, let me Point out that the OP seem to be mainly of the opinion that religions would spread mainly through spiritualistic pops and seldom in materialist pops

Also, in regard to the realism of religion in a space game let me first point out that religion has both waxed and waned and is not necessarily irrelevant to humanity at this point and it may not hold the same for aliens anyway.

To the OP: I approve, this would allow greater roleplaying if and when I want to play as the Cthulhu-worshipping spacesquids.

 

[I_AM_King_Midas]

Spirituality != religious. i would not want the whole religion system tied into the spiritual trait.

 

[zukodark]

If a mod were to implement something close to my idea, it wouldn't mean that only spiritual Civs would have religions. The spiritualist ethos affect the spreading and modifiers of the tenets. With my system, a spiritual/materialist-neutral civ would have the choice to have or not have religions at the game start, but this doesn't mean they cannot adopt other beliefs. About a lack of variety, it could always be possible to randomize the name and tenets of a religion. Don't know why I didn't put it there.

My post was never about suggesting this should be introduced to the game, it was to discuss an idea, and attempt to make a system that is not terrible (unlike many other religious systems suggested, in my opinion.)

Also, if theoretically my system would be a mod or whatever, I'd think Xenophobes would be much less inclined to adopt the beliefs of aliens, unlike Xenophiles.