Religious league...everybody's against me.. is it normal?

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byebytoad

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I don't know if it's the latest patch or you have experienced the same, but in this religious league I have all the great powers against me.
Even my 2 allies, the Ottomans and France abandoned me to flip on the other side even though I had over 80 trust, even though their rivals were on the Catholic side.

The only great nation on my side is Russia (but only because it was already on the protestant side before I joined).

How can I possibly win when I'm so outnumbered? (Austria has even Sweden among the allies)
 

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cuendillar

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Wouldn't say it's normal, but it's not that unlikely if the reformation doesn't really take. I think you'll just have to roll with the punches here and either flip catholic or give up any hopes for emperorship. That war's suicide and the smartest thing to do is to adapt to the situation you got rather than the one you wish you had.
 
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filcat

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How can I possibly win when I'm so outnumbered?
This looks very interesting. Would it be possible to provide some more screenshots? (F11 during the game does the trick, by the way)

Especially the religious map, and a couple of other tags' diplomacy screens, to understand who is rivaled by whom.
 

byebytoad

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This looks very interesting. Would it be possible to provide some more screenshots? (F11 during the game does the trick, by the way)

Especially the religious map, and a couple of other tags' diplomacy screens, to understand who is rivaled by whom.
I've added the religious map to the first post.

The Diplomacy of some big nation won't be avery useful I believe because the issue is that everything changed after I joined the protestant league. The Evangelical union happened in 1552/3 and we're now in 1575
France and Ottomans were my allies when I joined te protestant league. Yet the Ottomans joined the Catholics and then France too. Also some Reformed and Protestant factions didn't join any side: particularly Hungary (in this run has been at war against Austria multiple times and Austria took some core provinces from them).
Provence didn't join my side despite France being in the catholic.
Denmark is Protestant and ddidn't join me as well.

Venice..was protestant holding only Venice and Crete. They joined the catholic league, so I decided to eliminate them to reduce the number of enemies.
 
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byebytoad

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Wouldn't say it's normal, but it's not that unlikely if the reformation doesn't really take. I think you'll just have to roll with the punches here and either flip catholic or give up any hopes for emperorship. That war's suicide and the smartest thing to do is to adapt to the situation you got rather than the one you wish you had.
I was thinking I could try to eliminate as many little faction on the enemy side as I can or at least reduce to dust some opponent before starting te big war.
I can't become emperor as I'm still a republic. But I was waiting for this war.
My advantage is that I'm super rich (20k in the treasury) and I was thinking i could use the money efficiently to gain some advantage.
At the moment I'm subsidizing all the factions in the protestant league so that they keep their army size as closer as possible to their limit
 

EarlKonrad

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The AI tries to make the Religious League somewhat balanced, meaning that the combined strength of all participants on each side will be about equal. Additionally, The Emperor's rivals are more likely to join the Protestant's side.
 

MagentaPhoenix

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I know this isn't helpful after the fact, but this is why waiting for all/most majors to choose sides before you join is essential. If the sides end up too lopsided, simply abstain from the war entirely and use it as a chance to ambush your main rival while they're slogging it out with other powers. Unfortunate how RNG it is, but that's the way it is for now.
 
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cuendillar

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A country which is already fighting with/against a member of either league won't be able to join the war and can't jump in later on unless allied to the war leader. Since you're heading the protestant league, you can start the war whenever you want to. If no golden opportunity presents itself, I'd engineer one by calling in Ottomans and France vs Spain + allies. This means at least three fewer majors on the opposing side (more if Austria or GB would join either side), so when that war is all but over you can trigger a much easier league war. Then peace out Spain and call France+Ottomans into the league war as allies rather than league members. They could peace out separately, unlike league members, but their support is worth way more than the effort of keeping them in the war.


This will be much more effective than picking off minors, but if you intend to eat them soon enough anyway you might as well do it before the league war.
 
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byebytoad

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I know this isn't helpful after the fact, but this is why waiting for all/most majors to choose sides before you join is essential. If the sides end up too lopsided, simply abstain from the war entirely and use it as a chance to ambush your main rival while they're slogging it out with other powers. Unfortunate how RNG it is, but that's the way it is for now.
You're right I should have waited. But I was fearing that Austria might decide to attack the Protestant league as I've seen it doing it sometimes when the odds are very favorable to the Catholic league. I fear if I had waited for too long the war could start without me.
 

filcat

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I'd engineer one by calling in Ottomans and France
This does not seem feasible, as they are already in the opposite league. As soon as they choose their side opposite of the player, those alliances fall within months (hostile attitude).

A country which is already fighting with/against a member of either league won't be able to join the war
This is feasible, but it should have been done before losing those alliances, so that the player could call them; otherwise, the player is at the mercy of the code's own decisions to make such wars; usually russia and the ottos engage beforehand, or france and england-spain, barring them from joining the league war.


everything changed after I joined the protestant league.
This is a correct observation, as the code usually takes side by the rivalries, and the player's rivals play a serious role in that regard. That is why it is asked to have some of the tags' diplomacy screens.

It is a pity that it looks like there are not many other great powers that did not take any side, which could eventually join the war after it starts as great power intervention, seeing the unbalanced great power numbers on the sides. Usual examples are mamluks (if they survive; in the player's case, they are already dead), the ottos (if they do not take any sides; in the player's case, they already made up their minds), england-great britain (if they do not ally austria; again, not possible in the player's case, they are already in the catholic side), great horde (if they survive, and eat up lithuania and muscovy; in the player's case, they are already beyond death), and... mughals-ming-mewar-butua-ashikaga daimyo gunshū-moluccan empire of ternate-incan empire-mongolia/yuan-korea (as the player is playing outside of europe:D).

Overall, the situation seems dire, and hopefully the player can survive; but with that league, it will be rather challenging. Best of luck!

Edit: Corrected grammatical mistake.
 

RMS Oceanic

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Once the league fires it quickly runs away from religious allegiance to personal interests, namely "eww, that guy's supporting X, I'll join Y". I'd see who else is on one side to see why your allies joined the other.

Also the best strategy for the League as a protestant is to put a marker to pause the game when it fires, join, then attack immediately before anyone else joins.
 

byebytoad

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I took the bite in the end , and launched the attack on Austria.
I tried to take make the most of my advantages:

0-Ottomans had low manpower (Russia on my side too) and Austria had a low number of troops at the start of the war.
1-Military ideas: I was the only one with 2 military ideas fully unlocked: Quality and Offensive. Initially I intended to unlock Maritime at level 14, but when all the superpowers joine d the other side, I had a change of mind. Every other superpower had only fully offensive with exception of Austria (defensive) and Spain (Quantity, without the last 2 quantity ideas).
Also I had professionalism at 100%, and when the war started my armies were almost fully drilled.
2-Infinite source of money: when the war started I had 20k in the treasury. I went slightly over my force limit on land (121 vs 109 limit( and heavily on thesea (up to 190 vs 120 limit).
Ottomans were still in the process of rebuilding their fleet and this allowed me to keep on check the wholeMediterranean. Luckily British navy stayed on the sea, as also most of colonial fleets went there instead of the Mediterranean., blocking the passage at the Gulf of Almeria. Still had lots of heavy Spanish and French heavies to be aware of, but some early victories reduced their threat.
3-The advantage on the sea proved to be decisive. I had territories in Africa which attracted Spanish ,Portuguese, and initially part of the French troops. I took fully advantage of the fact that I was the only one who cold move fast my troops using the transport ships between my North African territories blitzing the AI medium-small armies (5k-12k).

My initial move was to take few strategical forts in the alps: Savoie, Inntal, Etchland. With those under my control+ Milan on the protestant league, I would be sure that in the worst case scenario I could use the Alps as a shield and destroy the enemy when they'd try to attack those forts. Also they were essential to give me freedom of movement.
I had a general since a few years with 5 siege pips. One of the 2 I recruited on the dawn of the war had 3. With those 2 and many cannons units I took the 3 within a few months, and started to venture outside to take more forts : Lyon, Auxerre, Liege, France-Comte, Brisgau. The fact that all those forts were level 2, while technologyy had reached level 14 meant that it didn't take long to conquer those.
All thise initial phase lasted about 18 months. I played only a few battles in the European continent during this time frame, when I had the chance to defeat some small armies (5-10k) getting too close to mine. I lost relatively few troops (only 10k in battles) mostly due to attrition. But overall my manpower remained constant (very close at max)/
In the meanwhile, my allies were being beaten repeatdly by the French with the help of some Spanish troops. The Austrian started with few troops. About 10 years ealier France attacked Austria (back when France was allied with me) ,calling me into the war and Austria lost the whole army and got near to 0 manpower.Then about 5-4 years before the religious war they lost another war inside the HRE . The defeat must have been very hard as Austria was forced to revoke an imperial reform. So Austria didn't do much in the beginning. Another important factor was that Spain has peasants rebels in its territories, which presumably slowed them down.
During this phase my side took way more casualties, about 30%-40% more casualties, and in the worst moments the enemy's alliance had nearly twice the amount of troops.
Russia was on my side, and their troops didn't prove to be very effective. But the key advantage they provided was that they kept busy the ottomans, Sweden, Norway, Livonian, Riga e part of Bohemian troops for all this phase.

After I conquered the those 7 forts (I also took Paris, as it could have possibly given me the chance to white peace with France should I have needed), the odds of the war started to spectacularly turn in my favor. As I gained geographical advantage in the Germany's area, I could easily isolate the Franch armies and wipe them out. At one point, all within 6-9 months France had remained with 12k troops and just 20k manpower reserves. At this stage I leave alone the remaining French armies to move my attentions on the british/scottish armies disembarking in the area of Bremen/Ditmarshen and the Austrian/Bohemian/Saxonian/Ottomans(only a fifth of their army) troops in the east side of Germany/Austria.
My troops at this stage were so divided: 45k wiping the disembarking british troops, 45k dealing with the east side and 30k being moved by sea as they were required supporting the east side and harassing the invading Portuguese/French/Spanish armies in North Africa. I found that destroying the invading armies in North Africa and then leaving was very effective against the AI as the AI after having part of their armies destroyed would turn back to France (left unprotected). This going back and forth between France and Algeria, made them waste lots of months while I could move within 20 days.

After regaining full control in the north of Germany, I moved those troops to conquer first Saxony then Boehmia, along with the other 45k that was already there. Vienna was also occupied in the process.
In the best moment during this phase my alliance had nearly 15% more troops more then the enemy (considering they had a fewn months before twice the troops compared to my side, it was a huge swing in my favor). The problem with the AI is that, not matter how you beat it, if you give it time, it will reform its armies very quickly.
France , Spain and Portugal quickly rebuilt the stack that were wiped out. I move half of my troops to France but I was outnumbered, wone a few small battles but then lost a big one (even though I still inflicted more lost then the ones I suffered). To not put everything gained so far in geopardy, I quickly made peace with France (I was able to also get a few coins ).

At this stage I thought the war was in my hands, and I started to think how to close this war. I decided to use 60% of my troops to deal with Spain and Portugal once for all, and 40% to make Sweden and Norway surrender. The campaign against Sweden and Norway proved to be easy: the bulk of their troops were in Ukraine. On the way to the Scandinavian lands I destroyed again some newly disembarked British stacks. Within 15 motnhs I made Sweden surrender (was ablt to ask some money too). Those troops were sent to complete the conquest of Bohemian troops. Don't know why, but they were quite passive and didn't reform their army.
The war against Spain and Portugal proved to be way more difficult and longer. Eventually I maanged to make peace with Spain and Portugal getting also some money in the process.

The last part was to subdue the Ottomans who also rebuilt their army. I maanged to gain some good score. I could have gained 100% if my allies helpded in the process (they were the only one in the continental part of Europa left to fight along with Albania). My AI allies unfortunately stalled (they were very effective in the first half of the war) so I left asking whatever money I could, plus some land for Chili as I was reaching my limit with the manpower. Then I made peace with Austria with 100% score.
 
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Titanius Puffin

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Nice salvaging of a tricky situation.
Pity so much of Europe went reformed... because they are rarely as sympathetic to the evangelical league compared to regular protestants.
It's kind of historical (to a point) , but can be frustrating.
 

byebytoad

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Nice salvaging of a tricky situation.
Pity so much of Europe went reformed... because they are rarely as sympathetic to the evangelical league compared to regular protestants.
It's kind of historical (to a point) , but can be frustrating.
I think the key part for me,is that I triggered the war 5-6 years after the technology 14 came to time.
That was the key for me because I managed to get a second military idea, which gave me an advantage overeverybody else, plus a second military policy.

But maybe even more important was that forts level 4 became available. Since no AI faction upgraded until that point ,sieges were very fast while it would have taken much longer if the AI was to siege mine (they were all upgraded when the war started).
 
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LastSalian

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Pretty atypical having Ottomans and France in the same side than Austria., and Spain in the same side than France. I guess Ottomans chose to be in the opposite side than Russia, and France doesn't hate Austria enough because the Burgundian crisis didn't help Austria.