Religious Ideas as Russia: What's the point?

[Steel_atlas]

Going admin first to me seems dodgy.

The whole Russia is naturally good at it seems dodgy to.

Some tags can get away with skimping on military ideas.

 

[klingonadmiral]

If you are doing mass expansion or WC type game, you probably want it. I would probably take it second

Problem is, what first to pick? Muscovy's starting ruler starts with 1 DIP, and you have a whole lot of vassals to integrate earlygame. And earlygame I'd rather be a crucial mil tech ahead than having say 15% morale from Defensive.

I would say that only finishing your first idea group at 1550 is bit of a problem, though.

Problem is, earlygame you have bad MP generation. Then your priority is to hit ADM 10 to form Russia, and by that point you are already pretty close to 1550.

In my second Muscovy try I finished Humanism around 1530, but I got RNG-screwed pretty hard that game (the dreaded Denmark-PLC alliance).

Admittedly, I'm still not quite sure on how to play the Muscovy opening moves. The requirements to get the claims on Novgorod are rather harsh.

 

[Steel_atlas]

Influence is going to save diplomatic points through integration.

And I find the hordes tend to be great vassals since they balkanize and you get lots of recore claims.

Forcing religion after you vassalize them and converting their provinces also saves you dip points because you don't have to juggle accepted cultures as much.

MUS is one of the few tags I stay religious instead of swapping to humanism once imperialism unlocks since you can convert so quickly it makes wait a bit to turn things to TC

 

[klingonadmiral]

Influence is going to save diplomatic points through integration.

Issue is, the integration cost reduction comes after spending 1200 DIP on influence ideas. To put Muscovy's diplomatic situation into perspective, I'm in a real risk of hitting ADM/MIL 7 before hitting DIP 4.

And while I usually have no issue abandoning DIP tech as a land-based country, Muscovy's econ is so bad that I really don't want to spend cash on keeping corruption down.

In fact, bad econ is a recurring issue in my Russia runs. I've forcelimit aplenty, but can support maybe only 2/3rds of it.

 

[Cancerofthehead]

Problem is, what first to pick? Muscovy's starting ruler starts with 1 DIP, and you have a whole lot of vassals to integrate earlygame. And earlygame I'd rather be a crucial mil tech ahead than having say 15% morale from Defensive.



Problem is, earlygame you have bad MP generation. Then your priority is to hit ADM 10 to form Russia, and by that point you are already pretty close to 1550.

In my second Muscovy try I finished Humanism around 1530, but I got RNG-screwed pretty hard that game (the dreaded Denmark-PLC alliance).

Admittedly, I'm still not quite sure on how to play the Muscovy opening moves. The requirements to get the claims on Novgorod are rather harsh.

To get Admin tech 10 on time after completing an Admin idea group costs about 6 admin per month if you pay the full amount for each tech and idea. Using some discounts and exploiting the neighbour bonus can get there a lot cheaper.

Also not sure why integrating your vassals is a big deal. They should be small enough to not cost much for ones you need to integrate and you can leave most as vassals a while. Plus you now can take out the privilege for additional relations slots so you can get an ally and another subject easily. And even if you want to annex them early, if you aren’t exploring the new world diplo tech is pretty unimportant. You can easily tank it for a century or so and catch up quickly using the neighbour bonus taking three at once for about 300 points each.

 

[iClipse]

Yes. It's just a bit of money and missionary strength. Also, who takes Trade ideas?

And while I usually have no issue abandoning DIP tech as a land-based country, Muscovy's econ is so bad that I really don't want to spend cash on keeping corruption down.

In fact, bad econ is a recurring issue in my Russia runs. I've forcelimit aplenty, but can support maybe only 2/3rds of it.

So, yeah, there you have it. Who takes Trade, right?


So, I'm being a bit sarcastic here, obviously. I used to think Econ was all the rage and Trade ideas sucked. But then I realised a few things. First: In the admin group you already have the mandatory religious/humanist + admin idea groups. Which one are you going to delay for econ? Trade fits that bill quite nicely, since it uses diplomatic power. This is purely from a single player mindset obviously.

The extra merchants are a godsend if you can place them. Which Russia can. It's the difference between just collecting from the russia region and collecting from trade from Persia and/or China as well, both very rich regions.

Trade has fantastic policies. +20% goods produced is my favorite, which instantly makes you rich, however it has many others. It has +20% trade efficiency twice, both with other relevant idea groups (admin and qual), it has +10% goods produced with religious, it has the coveted movement speed with Offensive ideas. Or just idea cost reduction with Humanist, which stacks nicely.

If I'm playing next to the HRE, you're way better off with an idea group that reduces AE. However, this is not the case for Russia. You take -25% AE with religious, so that problem is fixed. The Quantity idea group is only useful if you can pay for that army, which again, is fixed by Trade ideas.

Going for Trade is definitely not the only 'right' way to play Russia, but it's certainly a strong and valid approach. With those same trade ideas, you have money to build manufacturies everywhere, and then you can pay for that huge army, so Quantity ideas aren't wasted.

What I'd suggest is try it out, play past tech 10 at least and make your own conclusion. Go for Trade + Religious + Quantity + Admin in that order, take the policies, and you have all you need for a world conquest with Russia.

 

[klingonadmiral]

To get Admin tech 10 on time after completing an Admin idea group costs about 6 admin per month if you pay the full amount for each tech and idea.

That ignores:

- coring (which you have to do a lot of fast as Muscovy)
- not being caught up in institutions (which you will not be as Russia for a quite significant time)
- having to devpush institutions

Which results in this:

If it takes until 1495 to get the margin to pick the first Religious idea, no wonder it takes until 1550 to get to Deus Vult.

Also weird how Russia has constant problems with crownland when historically Ivan III heavily centralized his kingdom (and yes, late Muscovy was de facto a kingdom since at least 1485 when Ivan III proclaimed himself "Grand Prince of All Russia").

 

[Blizzrd33]

I play Russia probably more than any other country and I usually try to head for WC.
Having tried many variations of idea groups, I now find myself always taking Religious at some point in the first 3 idea groups, usually as my 2nd group.
From much experience, can recommend it highly.

 

[klingonadmiral]

The extra merchants are a godsend if you can place them.

Trade Companies, my dude. 50% control or more by a TC in its region = 1 extra merchant. Plus once you consolidate your territory, some of your innermost nodes (notably Kazan) become uncontested, meaning you can place your merchant there further outward. Being an European country, Russia can also take the "Found Indian Trade Company" decision for another extra merchant.

Which one are you going to delay for econ?

If I had to chose between econ and trade, I'd chose: Neither.

Admin/Diplo/Influence/(Rel)Hum/Offensive/Defensive gang rise up.

 

[Blizzrd33]

That ignores:

- coring (which you have to do a lot of fast as Muscovy)

Not if you take Influence Ideas first, which will allow you to use your vassals to do a whole bunch of early coring for the cost of some Diplo points when you integrate them, Diplo points that you otherwise don't have much need of in the early stages of a game.

 

[Silvanel]

The thing many people forgot when playing EU is that this game lasts almost 400 years. Sometimes is is better to take decisions which gives You less in short run but reward You in the long. Admin idea group is one such decision, so is religious (especially as Catholic or Russia). Trust me - as Russia take admin first and religious third. I did WC and One Faith as Russia that way and also culture converted to russian entire mainland euroasia (back then when Russia had " minus culture conversion cost in ideas").

 

[sesn]

EDIT: I'm sorry. Did you really ask who takes quantity as RUSSIA?!?!

Literally everyone dude! You are throwing away your countries greatest stength and that makes me very very sad.

Russia already has quantity with it's ideas and government form giving +53% manpower recovery and +50% force limit. It practically already has quantity build in, taking the idea group on top of that will show diminishing returns, better to improve the many troops you already have.

 

[Steel_atlas]

The new TC mechanics destroyed the weak argument for trade ideas as MUS.

More FL means more mercs can be hired without going over it.

Which saves you money.

 

[Blizzrd33]

By the time most of these bonuses are relevent, the difficulty of the game is not. The bonuses from religious conversion helps to counteract the resistant of muslim conversion and that early boost from religion conversion very powerful.

EDIT: I'm sorry. Did you really ask who takes quantity as RUSSIA?!?!

Literally everyone dude! You are throwing away your countries greatest stength and that makes me very very sad.

Russia is a bit tight for manpower until maybe 1500 but there is no need to take Quantity Ideas if you know what you are doing.

 

[cetvrtak]

In fact, bad econ is a recurring issue in my Russia runs.

Bad economy as Russia? You should really get to know how the economy works before talking about relative worth of ideas.

 

[Steel_atlas]

Bad economy as Russia? You should really get to know how the economy works before talking about relative worth of ideas.

Unnecessarily harsh .

But Russia does have a lot of great trade goods and the easiest nodes to control in Europe.

 

[Cancerofthehead]

That ignores:

- coring (which you have to do a lot of fast as Muscovy)
- not being caught up in institutions (which you will not be as Russia for a quite significant time)
- having to devpush institutions

Which results in this:

View attachment 634934

If it takes until 1495 to get the margin to pick the first Religious idea, no wonder it takes until 1550 to get to Deus Vult.

Also weird how Russia has constant problems with crownland when historically Ivan III heavily centralized his kingdom (and yes, late Muscovy was de facto a kingdom since at least 1485 when Ivan III proclaimed himself "Grand Prince of All Russia").

Why do you need to spend much on coring? You have plenty of vassals you can feed, yes that may be less monarch point efficient in the long run by not benefitting from your perma-claims, but you will have more monarch points to spare later in the mid-game so it is beneficial to put off spending until then.

If you are going for an admin idea group first you should be pushing Renaissance almost entirely with diplo and mil (falling behind in mil tech for a little while is fine, you shouldn’t have any real threats breathing down your neck at that stage anyway and your neighbours will most likely fall behind themselves).

if you have gotten to almost 1500 without finding any MP to take your first idea, you can definitely find efficiencies there. My first thought is that if you are taking an idea group you should prioritize it over tech because that both directly decreases its type of tech cost (84 points per level for a full group) and giving you more access to neighbour bonuses. Which is the main reason I would suggest not taking an admin idea group first if you don’t have a good admin ruler (you will delay the admin group slightly but get the diplo or mil group online earlier). Plus ideas generally give you more benefit than tech.

For power generation, you said you couldn’t have the estates +1 admin power because you had to take the +1 mil. You are Muscovy you don’t need a tech advantage to beat up your neighbours, you can easily kill Novgorod, the hordes and nearby minors with tech parity or even behind a level with your size and vassals. I would take the admin point first if I were going an admin idea group early and am worried about MP. However, I would probably instantly take both of them as the penalty for 20-30% crown land isn’t that bad and then take the diplo point as soon as I hit 30 again.

 

[BlazeKnight_]

That ignores:

- coring (which you have to do a lot of fast as Muscovy)
- not being caught up in institutions (which you will not be as Russia for a quite significant time)
- having to devpush institutions

Which results in this:

View attachment 634934

If it takes until 1495 to get the margin to pick the first Religious idea, no wonder it takes until 1550 to get to Deus Vult.

Also weird how Russia has constant problems with crownland when historically Ivan III heavily centralized his kingdom (and yes, late Muscovy was de facto a kingdom since at least 1485 when Ivan III proclaimed himself "Grand Prince of All Russia").

Yeah no way. If you're having problems with filling out idea groups that badly, then that's your fault, not the game's. If you're spending mana on coring so much, then maybe don't open with an ADM idea group? Regardless there is no reason you shouldn't fill out your idea groups if you manage mana properly.

Also, don't spend ADM on developing. Tax dev is bad.

 

[klingonadmiral]

You are Muscovy you don’t need a tech advantage to beat up your neighbours, you can easily kill Novgorod, the hordes and nearby minors with tech parity or even behind a level with your size and vassals.

Admittedly it's not the super-earlygame anymore in my run, but here's my situation in 1501:

Fighting Lithuania would involve me fighting them, the Kalmar Union and France (catholic DoTF). Same alliances apply for Denmark.

And Ottomans is Sunni DotF, so I can't fight the Europeans Horde either. And Nogai is allied to Chagatai and Timurids.

(And people wonder why I mostly play Asian Sunni countries)

Well, time to try out the Influence opener.

 

[RobbieAB]

Who is the green province on your eastern border? Why not attack Uzbek?

You still have options to keep going