Religious Ideas as Russia: What's the point?

[klingonadmiral]

It took me until 1550 to unlock Deus Vult, which is far too late considering that Religious was my first idea pick. Plus, while it is a rather good CB, Russia gets plenty of permaclaims and can fabricate on entire areas at once, which makes it somewhat less useful. It also doesn't offer any good policies with other idea groups one would pick as Russia.

 

[Romanix90]

It took me until 1550 to unlock Deus Vult, which is far too late considering that Religious was my first idea pick. Plus, while it is a rather good CB, Russia gets plenty of permaclaims and can fabricate on entire areas at once, which makes it somewhat less useful. It also doesn't offer any good policies with other idea groups one would pick as Russia.

From my perspective Religious gives you amongst others : permanent CB, extra missionary and effects missionary strength, reduces culture conversion cost. Despite the fact that with Russian missions you get perma claims and that you can claim entire area i would still pick Religious as first idea. Mainly because of religious conversion once you start taking some provinces.

 

[petertju]

Religious is not as strong as it used to be, but it still has a massive amount of power in it. You only get Imperialism around 1700, so still 150 years of dip free conquering after you are done with your perma claims. Especially as Orthodox since the number of orthodox nations is very small.

 

[iClipse]

No good policies? Is +10% goods produced and +1 missionary strength a bad policy? Is +10% Morale a bad policy? What about +5% Morale and +10% Siege ability? They all are top tier policies.

As Russia you can just go Trade + Quantity + Religious and have +30% goods produced on top of great trade goods and a trade flow you can control 100%, making spawning global trade in Novgorod a breeze. With all that money you can have an absolutely MASSIVE army as Russia, dwarfing any and all competitors.

Also, Deus Vult not only reduces AE by 25%, it also makes it so you don't have to claim stuff in the first place.

 

[grotaclas]

Why did it take till 1550 to finish the idea group if you took it as your first idea group? This looks like you could improve your mana generation and management.

 

[sekelsenmat]

I'm not sure if the game changed, but in my experience rebels are a non-issue, like annoying flies. I don't know why so many people recommend Humanist or Religious to beat rebels if rebels are a minor annoyance? Beating the Ottomans in a war? Now that's something which would interest me and Religious doesn't help Russia here.

The only case where I am considering Religious is for a "Fortress Persia" run, hoping to attrition to death all enemies with Religion+Defensive in my mountain forts... but even in this case I am not fully convinced it will work. Let's see.

As Russia despite the initial thinking that this same strategy would be a good idea, it is not. You are mostly fighting on the South where there are no terrain modifiers and no terrible winter. If you, like me, likes to recreate the real expansion path of countries, then you will ally Sweden to safe-guard the north border and will expand to the South and to the East, so there is never any meaningful invasion of your country in the north the whole game...

Historically Russia acquired Finland in 1808: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_War

So for Russia IMHO the best is Economic+Quality. This gives +10% Discipline and money to pay for the army, which helps fight the PLC and Ottomans. I don't see how anything else would be better.

IMHO the ideas/policies are unbalanced. Some are massively better than others.

permanent CB

getting CB is trivial, just a little spy time on the area you don't already have perma claim

, extra missionary and effects missionary strength

Even without Third Rome I was able to convert without trouble like 10 provinces in 40 years with the help of Muskovy's +1% missionary strength. With the +2% that Third Rome gives via the Orthodox buffs then .... totally unnecessary.

reduces culture conversion cost.

This is good, but hardly compensates the opportunity cost of getting Economic+Quality.

 

[iClipse]

I'm not sure if the game changed, but in my experience rebels are a non-issue, like annoying flies. I don't know why so many people recommend Humanist or Religious to beat rebels if rebels are a minor annoyance? Beating the Ottomans in a war? Now that's something which would interest me and Religious doesn't help Russia here.

The only case where I am only Religious is for a "Fortress Persia" run, hoping to attrition to death all enemies with Religion+Defensive in my mountain forts...

As Russia despite the initial thinking that this same strategy would be a good idea, it is not. You are mostly fighting on the South where there are no terrain modifiers and no terrible winter. If you, like me, likes to recreate the real expansion path of countries, then you will ally Sweden to safe-guard the north border and will expand to the South and to the East, so there is never any meaningful invasion of your country in the north the whole game...

Historically Russia acquired Finland in 1808: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_War

So for Russia IMHO the best is Economic+Quality. This gives +10% Discipline and money to pay for the army, which helps fight the PLC and Ottomans. I don't see how anything else would be better.



getting CB is trivial, just a little spy time on the area you don't already have perma claim



Even without Third Rome I was able to convert without trouble like 10 provinces in 40 years with the help of Muskovy's +1% missionary strength. With the +2% that Third Rome gives via the Orthodox buffs then .... totally unnecessary.



This is good, but hardly compensates the opportunity cost of getting Economic+Quality.

A single rebel stack is hardly an issue, but let's talk again after you've expanded in religious or culturally diverse areas. Try invading the Middle east without religious or humanist ideas.

All the rebels, and not once, but every ten years. Meanwhile your religious unity is tanking, giving you increased unrest all over, increased stab cost, making every stability drop way more expensive as well as lowering your absolutism. Meanwhile, every time you go over 100% overextension it's even more annoying because of extra unrest everywhere.

The CB is a godsend if you're doing small low cost/effort conquests. Sure, getting a claim on your rival is easy, but it's quite annoying to have to claim everywhere to conquer your neighbour one province minor.

 

[Steel_atlas]

I personally never go admin ideas first.

But Religious to me is semi mandatory and then I sometimes swap it out for Humanist after the Imperialism CB.

 

[noldorin]

Religious - Quality
İnnovative - Offensive

later diplo group.

i use these and their policies. I am very satisfied. You have to choose these groups according to your style of play.

 

[Vulpes Cinerea]

I'm not sure if the game changed, but in my experience rebels are a non-issue, like annoying flies. I don't know why so many people recommend Humanist or Religious to beat rebels if rebels are a minor annoyance? Beating the Ottomans in a war? Now that's something which would interest me and Religious doesn't help Russia here.

I agree with you that rebels are a non-issue. Surely from patch 1.30 onwards. But what kind of metric is this? To me the Ottomans are a non-issue since I beat them every game with ease. Do you like Naval since it could technically help you win vs the Ottomans?

So for Russia IMHO the best is Economic+Quality. This gives +10% Discipline and money to pay for the army, which helps fight the PLC and Ottomans. I don't see how anything else would be better.

You said Religious does not do anything for beating the Ottomans, yet you advocate for Economic? If it is purely for the policy, then I have news for you: Religious has good policies with Quantity and Quality for fighting the Ottomans.

Economic for a big blobbing nation is a waste of a slot. It gives them nothing they really need. If you only want it for the extra money, you should pick Trade. Economic is good for multiplayer policy stacking and for playing tall (dev cost!).

And Quality is one of the worst ideas in single player. Half of it is actually just Naval (which sucks). Quantity, Offensive, Defensive and Aristocratic give you so much more utility while also boosting your combat capabilities.

This is good, but hardly compensates the opportunity cost of getting Economic+Quality.

You advocate for a combination of idea groups that is only used in multiplayer or for playing tall. Taking Economic over Administrative as Muscovy is a really expensive mistake opportunity cost wise. You clearly don't know what you sacrifice by taking Economic+Quality as a major blobbing nation.

 

[redshirt4life]

Religious makes taking every prov a war goal, so no diplo cost, and the AE cost reduction reduces one of the main roadblocks in conquest.

Rebels require resources. With Russia, sending troops across the continent to handle rebels can be a constant headache.

Religious unity remains a very big deal unless your muslim (dhimmi privileges OP). Corruption cost and a potential religious disaster can really slow conquest.

Negative tolerance gives a nasty -10% goods produced per percent and you only get orthodox bonuses in orthodox providences, namely the +33% manpower.

And finally, the policies are pretty top notch. Someone mentioned that they only care about things which will increase their ability to fight the ottomans. +10% seige ability is one of the best military modifiers for this. With current AI behavior it's much more likely to see the enemy armies avoiding your own and combat devolving into a seige race.

 

[EarlKonrad]

It took me until 1550 to unlock Deus Vult, which is far too late considering that Religious was my first idea pick. Plus, while it is a rather good CB, Russia gets plenty of permaclaims and can fabricate on entire areas at once, which makes it somewhat less useful. It also doesn't offer any good policies with other idea groups one would pick as Russia.

Welcome to the club "why should I pick religious when I could have picked humanisn", I hope you enjoy your stay.

The point is to convert all of the Sunni provinces you conquer into Orthodox land and then consecrate metropolitans to get more manpower and unrest reduction... But is it even worth it nowadays? To be honest, I don't know. Certainly not as a opener, no. Religious works best as a second or third idea for Russia as you have loads and loads of land to core early on.

Another good thing is their CB which will save you quite a bit of Dip points, the utility of which is questionable as you don't really need diplo points for anything else than establishing Siberian Frontiers. To be honest I'd go for humanisn if I were to chose between either idea group. It gives you unrest reduction, more culture slots (very important as you will be conquering many different cultures), universal tolerance and less separatism.

To be clear, converting land to Ortho is good but I don't see it as essential. Orthodox nations can get plenty of Patriarcal Authority from events (their religious events are bloody amazing btw) and most of the Steppe land that you could convert is rather worthless.

 

[iClipse]

Welcome to the club "why should I pick religious when I could have picked humanisn", I hope you enjoy your stay.

The point is to convert all of the Sunni provinces you conquer into Orthodox land and then consecrate metropolitans to get more manpower and unrest reduction... But is it even worth it nowadays? To be honest, I don't know. Certainly not as a opener, no. Religious works best as a second or third idea for Russia as you have loads and loads of land to core early on.

Another good thing is their CB which will save you quite a bit of Dip points, the utility of which is questionable as you don't really need diplo points for anything else than establishing Siberian Frontiers. To be honest I'd go for humanisn if I were to chose between either idea group. It gives you unrest reduction, more culture slots (very important as you will be conquering many different cultures), universal tolerance and less separatism.

To be clear, converting land to Ortho is good but I don't see it as essential. Orthodox nations can get plenty of Patriarcal Authority from events (their religious events are bloody amazing btw) and most of the Steppe land that you could convert is rather worthless.

I'd agree with you with any other religion but Orthodox. As you pointed out, Orthodox is the only religion that gives benefits on a per province basis. Converting a province to Orthodox gives +33% manpower and -3 unrest in that province, making Orthodox an extremely stable religion. You can go to 150-200 OE with Orthodox without any issue in your converted provinces. Also, converting a province to Orthodox gives so much tolerance, that it instantly cancels out the seperatism (once OE is gone).

Those loads of land to conquer, I'm not sure which lands you mean. Golden hordes land are Poor and low development (mostly). Novgorod obviously. But most of your land comes from your vasals. Conquering Lithuania isn't really worth it early imo. Poor land, with poor trade goods and you can't direct trade as well due to caravan power and unability to control other outgoing trade nodes like Poland. Sure, you can conquer Poland as well, and you should, in time, but not early in the game. Unless you like fighting the HRE. I'm not sure why you'd do that when you have so easy expansion in Asia once you form Russia at tech 10 and use the Siberian Frontier. All the Siberian, Chinese and Persian lands all funnel their trade to your main trade hub, so choose the easy route first is what I'd say.

I did try humanist as Russia, but was unimpressed with it.

 

[holyvigil]

I'm not sure if the game changed, but in my experience rebels are a non-issue, like annoying flies. I don't know why so many people recommend Humanist or Religious to beat rebels if rebels are a minor annoyance? Beating the Ottomans in a war? Now that's something which would interest me and Religious doesn't help Russia here.

The only case where I am considering Religious is for a "Fortress Persia" run, hoping to attrition to death all enemies with Religion+Defensive in my mountain forts... but even in this case I am not fully convinced it will work. Let's see.

As Russia despite the initial thinking that this same strategy would be a good idea, it is not. You are mostly fighting on the South where there are no terrain modifiers and no terrible winter. If you, like me, likes to recreate the real expansion path of countries, then you will ally Sweden to safe-guard the north border and will expand to the South and to the East, so there is never any meaningful invasion of your country in the north the whole game...

Historically Russia acquired Finland in 1808: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_War

So for Russia IMHO the best is Economic+Quality. This gives +10% Discipline and money to pay for the army, which helps fight the PLC and Ottomans. I don't see how anything else would be better.

IMHO the ideas/policies are unbalanced. Some are massively better than others.



getting CB is trivial, just a little spy time on the area you don't already have perma claim



Even without Third Rome I was able to convert without trouble like 10 provinces in 40 years with the help of Muskovy's +1% missionary strength. With the +2% that Third Rome gives via the Orthodox buffs then .... totally unnecessary.



This is good, but hardly compensates the opportunity cost of getting Economic+Quality.

Religious and humanist are for WC players. It's really helpful when you need to sit at 125% OE on average all game.

These are ideas are for stressful situations that wc produces. If you need to rely on attrition to defeat enemies then that means you aren't expanding quickly enough for humanist and religious to really shine.

 

[sekelsenmat]

To me the Ottomans are a non-issue since I beat them every game with ease.

With which nations and on which year do you beat them? If you say Venice 1450 then I'm impressed.

Anyway this is clearly not the case for most players, see the endless threads about op ottomans, so that's why I mentioned it as a criteria, it is not completely arbitrary.

Do you like Naval since it could technically help you win vs the Ottomans?

As Venice yes, I'd take either Naval or Maritime to beat the Ottomans at sea.

But enough me, what do you advocate? Administrative + what? And how do you beat the Ottomans or a big PLC without the 10 discipline that my combo gives?

 

[Astalic]

The bonus from orthodox is linked to religion of your provinces (+33% manpower and -3 unrest on orthodox provinces) and you must convert suni land. Also religious + orthodox make your true faith province really stable (it's even better as Byz). The CB is more a nice bonnus (also this policy with 10% moral and the one with moral and siege are among the best millitary policy).

 

[klingonadmiral]

Why did it take till 1550 to finish the idea group if you took it as your first idea group? This looks like you could improve your mana generation and management.

Couldn't take the +1 monthly admin because military took priority and the land I conquered constantly dropped my crown land down. Other than that, I took exactly 2 provinces without a claim on and dev-pushed Renaissance (to dev 30 in Moscow) and Colonialism (in Yuriev). I also stabbed up once. Focus has been on ADM since game start. And my leaders haven't been bad either.

Is +10% goods produced and +1 missionary strength a bad policy?

Yes. It's just a bit of money and missionary strength. Also, who takes Trade ideas?

Is +10% Morale a bad policy

Who takes Quantity ideas as Russia?

What about +5% Morale and +10% Siege ability?

Admittedly neat, but Quality is the epitome of a slot 7/8 idea group.

I'd agree with you with any other religion but Orthodox. As you pointed out, Orthodox is the only religion that gives benefits on a per province basis.

Thing is, Orthodox is pretty great at converting even without Religious.

Missionaries:

Base 1
+1 from DotF
+1 from Jerusalem
+1 from Mecca
+1 from Rome
+1 from the Pentarchy

Missionary strength:

Base 2
+2 from Patriarch Authority
+4 from decisions

Mix in an Inquisitor, state edicts and Cathedrals in the lategame and you get another up to +6 missionary strength, allowing you to crack even the toughest nuts.

 

[redshirt4life]

Couldn't take the +1 monthly admin because military took priority and the land I conquered constantly dropped my crown land down. Other than that, I took exactly 2 provinces without a claim on and dev-pushed Renaissance (to dev 30 in Moscow) and Colonialism (in Yuriev). I also stabbed up once. Focus has been on ADM since game start. And my leaders haven't been bad either.



Yes. It's just a bit of money and missionary strength. Also, who takes Trade ideas?



Who takes Quantity ideas as Russia?



Admittedly neat, but Quality is the epitome of a slot 7/8 idea group.



Thing is, Orthodox is pretty great at converting even without Religious.

Missionaries:

Base 1
+1 from DotF
+1 from Jerusalem
+1 from Mecca
+1 from Rome
+1 from the Pentarchy

Missionary strength:

Base 2
+2 from Patriarch Authority
+4 from decisions

Mix in an Inquisitor, state edicts and Cathedrals in the lategame and you get another up to +6 missionary strength, allowing you to crack even the toughest nuts.

By the time most of these bonuses are relevent, the difficulty of the game is not. The bonuses from religious conversion helps to counteract the resistant of muslim conversion and that early boost from religion conversion very powerful.

EDIT: I'm sorry. Did you really ask who takes quantity as RUSSIA?!?!

Literally everyone dude! You are throwing away your countries greatest stength and that makes me very very sad.

 

[BlazeKnight_]

The Reason? It is more viable and basically necessary in MP. Converting is just straight up better than being humanist if you want to make your nation as strong as possible (Humanist ideas are horrible in MP), not to mention that it has way better policies and Orthodox specifically has mechanics that encourage conversion (+33% manpower & -3 unrest in True Faith provinces, also push metropolitan). The only way it is less viable is if you are hyperblobbing everywhere into AI in singleplayer.

 

[Cancerofthehead]

Depends what you are trying to do.

If you just want to conquer the historical Russian empire, probably not needed and you can do better elsewhere.

If you are doing mass expansion or WC type game, you probably want it. I would probably take it second
though, unless I have something like a 6/2/2 ruler (usually I find it better to not take an admin group first unless I generate a ton of admin points so as not to delay my second group).

Converting is quite powerful for orthodox and by the time you are getting Jerusalem, Rome, etc onlineyou are probably well on your way to absolutism and can appreciate even more missionaries. Plus faster conversions are always good to eliminate the unrest and preventing rebellions from wasting time.

I wouldn’t say it is essential but it is pretty good.

I would say that only finishing your first idea group at 1550 is bit of a problem, though.