Religious Bonuses Elimination Thread

[alertiu5]

Also a religion made exclusively for Byzantium and then used only by Russia 99% of game is awesome.

Serbia, Wallachia (though those often get conquered fast)
Georgia

But I agree, Russia usually has a monopoly.

 

[Subbak]

Generic pagan got ousted despite being mechanically superior in an objectively-measured sense to at least six faiths, against the stated intention of the opening post. That's somewhat disenfranchising; this thread is actually off to a worse start than the government ones. At least there the criteria being used to axe governments wasn't so consistently inaccurate, even if it was inconsistently applied.

If you're making an opinion poll, you have to accept the fact that people are going to have other opinions, which you will consider wrong most of the time (unless they convince you, that is). Especially on something as subjective as which is the best, as for some people you cannot really divorce the flavor events from the mechanics.

I guess it doesn't help that the only time I've played generic pagan was when I tried a Cherokee game, which I promptly abandonned since it was the most bored I'd ever been. A negative experience does affect my opinion of the generic pagan religion. Also in that Cherokee game I did not see a single religious flavor event (positive or negative), whereas Christians and Muslims (admittedly the Christian ones tend to be negative) have them all the time, and even Eastern religion have a decent number of them.

 

[Itchel]

Catholic: 30
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 24
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 11
Vajrayana: 10
Mahayana: 0
Confucian: 1
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 22
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 18
Zoroastrian: 21

 

[saegoto]

Catholic: 30
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 24
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 11
Vajrayana: 10
Mahayana: 0
Confucian: 0
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 23
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 22
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 18
Zoroastrian: 21

 

[Locklen]

Catholic: 29 Someone on page 2 downvoted this by only 1 point, so this is a correction
Protestant: 30
Reformed: 24
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 9
Vajrayana: 10
Mahayana: 0
Confucian: 0
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 23
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 22
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 18
Zoroastrian: 21\

Eliminated:

19. Confucian
20. Mahayana

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you're making an opinion poll, you have to accept the fact that people are going to have other opinions, which you will consider wrong most of the time (unless they convince you, that is). Especially on something as subjective as which is the best, as for some people you cannot really divorce the flavor events from the mechanics.

I guess it doesn't help that the only time I've played generic pagan was when I tried a Cherokee game, which I promptly abandonned since it was the most bored I'd ever been. A negative experience does affect my opinion of the generic pagan religion. Also in that Cherokee game I did not see a single religious flavor event (positive or negative), whereas Christians and Muslims (admittedly the Christian ones tend to be negative) have them all the time, and even Eastern religion have a decent number of them.

The problem with what you're saying, is that if you complete this task:

1. Create a list of criteria by which you'd rate a religion's strength in-game.
2. Create a list of criteria by which you'd rate a religion's enjoyment/flavor in-game.
3. Make sure #1 and #2 are based on in-game considerations only, and not real-world influences (per OP request).

That you'd be unable to make criteria that eliminates pagans first. I assert that you and those who axed it first in this thread can't do it as of 1.12. Judaism and Zoroastrian would lose for certain, and probably Confucian and Buddhism x3 as well unless you really fudge the criteria by filling out your bottom line first.

How is a weaker faith (by any self-consistent rational measure) with fewer events less boring? Because you recognize the symbol?

Basically, if one's opinion is that red is a preferable color to blue, there's no way to refute that person's opinion. If one is of the opinion that the surface of the Earth is hotter than the surface of Venus, then that opinion is wrong; it is falsifiable and evidence can refute it.

When one cites the basis of voting down pagan as "weak" with the implication that it's weaker than the alternatives presented, they are committing to an assertion comparable to the latter. Unlike a color preference, that's a falsifiable opinion, something we can measure to not hold up. Confucian is objectively weaker in every category but conversion power when compared against animist for example, and sacrifices some of its tolerance just to gain that advantage, while Jewish is just flat-out weaker or equal in every regard (conversion power, bonuses, decisions, even #provinces with the faith etc).

Edit: Also, these ratings are based on the game's current state. Unless you played Cherokee in 1.12 or 1.13, you actually carry no evidence of your own whatsoever with which to eliminate that faith. It would be akin to smacking down pre-DLC pre-updated reformed because of how bland it is, or claiming that Protestant sucks because it has no mechanics and a dull bonus, or that 1.4 Catholicism is really frustrating because of constantly investing into cardinals. If you can't think of the bonuses of "animist syncretism" and don't even know about pagan decisions, what is the purpose of voting in the thread?

Did generic pagan really just get cut down because people don't actually play the nations that have it?

 

[Noel84]

Catholic: 30 Once you get big enough with +200 relations with the pope you get free stability pretty frequently, and if you're playing a republic you can use that stability to increase your RT
Protestant: 30
Reformed: 24
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 9 -10% discipline. 'nuff said
Vajrayana: 10
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 23
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 22
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 18
Zoroastrian: 21\

Eliminated:

19. Confucian
20. Mahayana
21.Pagan

 

[Darth Samuri]

Catholic: 30
Protestant: 31
Reformed: 24
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 9
Vajrayana: 10
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 21
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 22
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 18
Zoroastrian: 21\

Eliminated:

19. Confucian
20. Mahayana
21.Pagan

 

[adijarca]

Catholic: 30
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 24
Orthodox: 24
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 9
Vajrayana: 10
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 21
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 22
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 18
Zoroastrian: 21\

 

[Petrucci]

Catholic: 30
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 24
Orthodox: 24
Coptic: 13
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 9
Vajrayana: 10
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 22
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 18
Zoroastrian: 21

Eliminated:

19. Confucian
20. Mahayana
21.Pagan

 

[FrigidSoul]

That you'd be unable to make criteria that eliminates pagans first. I assert that you and those who axed it first in this thread can't do it as of 1.12. Judaism and Zoroastrian would lose for certain, and probably Confucian and Buddhism x3 as well unless you really fudge the criteria by filling out your bottom line first.

Pagan got boned in part because Buddhism has three branches. The Karma mechanic got a 40 point cushion.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Pagan got boned in part because Buddhism has three branches. The Karma mechanic got a 40 point cushion.

Even so, it doesn't look like it'll last long, it's just that bad .

 

[lecobra92]

How the hell is anyone down voting Hindu at all? When coptic, jewish, zoroastrian, and two of the three buddhisms are still up there? OP specifically mentioned having all dc downloaded, I guess people just haven't played it yet?

 

[delpiero1234]

How does this up and down voting work and what is the point of it? Before I vote I think I need to understand this better

 

[TheMeInTeam]

How the hell is anyone down voting Hindu at all? When coptic, jewish, zoroastrian, and two of the three buddhisms are still up there? OP specifically mentioned having all dc downloaded, I guess people just haven't played it yet?

Coptic doesn't belong with the others you mentioned. Sure, it's easily the worst Christian religion in the game, but it's still a Christian religion. You still get 2 TTF, and you still get missionaries from up to 3 holy cities alongside some of the game's better conversion power from decisions. In other words, Coptic nations are stable and can convert several times faster than many of the other faiths. It's a middling faith at worst; Hindu's bonuses are stronger for example but can't keep pace with fast expansion so you have to take steps to offset tanking your unity. With Coptic? Nah, just burn through everything like it's nothing converting it all, just like the other (stronger) Christian faiths.

Seriously, Coptic at 13 while Judaism and Zoro are pathetically weaker and while it outconverts all non-Abrahamic religions is pretty lulzy-bad. I really do question how many people voting here have really used all of these religions ^_^.

 

[bbqftw]

I played literally 1 day as guge, read the karma descriptions and quit campaign, does that count?

 

[lecobra92]

Coptic can also into hre with peace of Westphalia and eventually secure their European front with much easier alliances too no doubt, but I thought we were only discussing events, decisions and modifiers, not what one can do after conquering a bunch of heathen land such as mecca and judea or taken a specific idea group like religious . If we are then Hindu with humanist isn't too bad in terms of stability either with its tolerance of heathens. But stacked ttf trumps all with good conversion power ofc. Don't forget that Hindus are also less diplomatically isolated to start and have some pretty nice monarch point events too. Again, that diplomatic thing should only be considered if we're talking about things outside the scope of op, but that eliminates talking about taking religious and the upsides of conquering specific provinces too .

 

[Kombatdoctr]

Catholic: 30
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 24
Orthodox: 24
Coptic: 14 - Coptic is fairly decent, definitely better than any of the Eastern and Pagan groups, it has a lot of the conversion bonuses the other Christians get and it's almost non-existent outside of the Ethiopian region meaning it works amazingly well with the Religious CB
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 7 - The Karma system is awful
Vajrayana: 10
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 22
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 18
Zoroastrian: 21

Eliminated:

19. Confucian
20. Mahayana
21. Pagan

 

[Shaaaq]

Catholic: 31 (+1)
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 24
Orthodox: 24
Coptic: 14
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 5 (-2)
Vajrayana: 10
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 22
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 18
Zoroastrian: 21

Eliminated:

19. Confucian
20. Mahayana
21. Pagan

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I played literally 1 day as guge, read the karma descriptions and quit campaign, does that count?

What, you don't like a choice between siphoning away your monarch points or discipline?!

Coptic can also into hre with peace of Westphalia and eventually secure their European front with much easier alliances too no doubt, but I thought we were only discussing events, decisions and modifiers, not what one can do after conquering a bunch of heathen land such as mecca and judea or taken a specific idea group like religious

? "conquest of" *is* a "modifier", a triggered modifier, and relevant because other than Rome, only Abrahamic faiths get the others. They also gain a decision I didn't mention: defender of the faith. Especially for Coptic, it's pathetically easy to maintain and very powerful.

Hindu's heathen tolerance is also a legitimate consideration, but even with 100 legitimacy you're still at -1 so you get no unity from heathen provinces. Nevertheless, the partial synergy with humanist (and it's non-reliance on having true faith provinces for its bonuses) make the heathen tolerance a for-real factor to why Hindu is good (for example their client states are inordinately stable, starting with almost 100% unity even if 0 provinces are Hindu if you make them a monarchy), even if the deity bonuses are a larger component. IMO Hindu is the only non-Abrahamic faith that's really competitive with them, aside maybe a Tengri/humanist combo.

Synergy with options from an in-game perspective is an in-game consideration. You can split hairs on exactly where you draw the line I suppose, but triggered modifiers and decisions are *defined* as in-scope by the OP and contribute to why Coptic is (consistently, regardless of Ethiopia or custom nation) stronger than most non-Abrahamic picks...and probably stronger than Ibadi.