Religious Bonuses Elimination Thread

[alertiu5]

What about the true pagan religion that gives -10 unrest is that not good ? You can get it by making a pagan ruler in cK2 and importing to eu4 schould be valid since norse is also here

It is outlined in the original post - no CK2 converted ones.

 

[balmung60]

Second, that is exactly right in this case - Karma basically means "all Buddhists always have -10% discipline".

Out of interest, does karma affect the AI? Or does the mechanic only exist for the player?

Karma is a slider that gives +5% discipline and +1 diplo rep for being between +/-25%, -10% discipline for being below -50%, and -2 diplo rep for being above 50%. Since Karma is lost for declaring war and taking land and gained from getting wardec'd and releasing nations, playing like a nation with a religion that isn't trash will have you pretty much stuck at close to -100.

This happens to all Buddhists, provided that you own Common Sense and have it enabled. If you don't, Buddhism is kinda lame, but not actually detrimental to your nation.

What about the true pagan religion that gives -10 unrest is that not good ? You can get it by making a pagan ruler in cK2 and importing to eu4 schould be valid since norse is also here

You can get Norse without CK2, though, thanks to the nation designer, and no converter-only religions allowed.

 

[t6.28]

The scope of this poll is definitely from an in-game perspective, not name recognition of the religions, which is literally the only thing Jewish and Zoroastrian might have had. If you go by in-game terms only putting down pagan before Jewish/Zoro/Buddhist is ludicrous.

The advantage of Jewish and Zoroastrian, although it should not be featured in, is that it is a unique religion. If you take religious ideas, then those religion give you a permanent CB against everyone, whilst pagans only get a CB against some countries.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The advantage of Jewish and Zoroastrian, although it should not be featured in, is that it is a unique religion. If you take religious ideas, then those religion give you a permanent CB against everyone, whilst pagans only get a CB against some countries.

Can you cite a relevant advantage, please ? Religious CB requires ideas, which for every nation requires at least two techs. Show me one generic pagan that hasn't mopped virtually its entire faith by that point. Western African animists? Mutapa? NA councils? Yeren? Which generic pagan exactly will be at a religious CB disadvantage relative to Jewish or Zoroastrian in practice?

None of them. For practical purposes, the viability of holy war between Jewish and animist is so close to identical that the strength-of-CB isn't worth considering. Even in West Africa, you're uniting the animist religion under your flag long before you get your first idea group, and that's the largest pocket of animism in the world. NA councils want to conquer each other heavily pre-contact...and are a terrible example since you usually want exploration there and the times where this is a significant problem where conquest isn't plenty good enough are generally 0.

 

[SignedName]

Pagans do get the extremely useful -20% stability cost modifier.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Pagans do get the extremely useful -20% stability cost modifier.

They also get permanent yearly prestige, global -unrest from the religion, another global -unrest decision that is permanent, and a number of events (including their interaction with bordering other faiths and the potential for temporary +3 heathen tolerance).

They're not as good as Abrahamic faiths or DLC boosted Hindu, but it's strictly nonsense that they're likely the first religion gone. There's no worming out of the reality here; the OP scope of voting was ignored outright in favor of eliminating these faiths strictly because of their name/generic nature, not any in-game consideration. If you used legitimate in-game considerations, Shinto, all 3 Buddhists, Jewish, Confucian, Sikh and Zoroastrian are weaker than the generic pagans, while DLC Hindu and Abrahamic stuff is stronger. For some of the others I'm not sure.

 

[Trace284]

Catholic: 29
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 22
Orthodox: 22
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:24
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 11
Vajrayana: 12
Mahayana: 3
Confucian: 7
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 21
Sikh: 20
Pagan: 3
Inti: 21
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 21
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 20
Zoroastrian: 21

Down with Vajrayana Buddhism, for making hordes worry about warring too much. Paganism is great for the stability bonus and the -RR, not to mention the awesome flavor of bringing old world paganism into modernity.

 

[balmung60]

They also get permanent yearly prestige, global -unrest from the religion, another global -unrest decision that is permanent, and a number of events (including their interaction with bordering other faiths and the potential for temporary +3 heathen tolerance).

They're not as good as Abrahamic faiths or DLC boosted Hindu, but it's strictly nonsense that they're likely the first religion gone. There's no worming out of the reality here; the OP scope of voting was ignored outright in favor of eliminating these faiths strictly because of their name/generic nature, not any in-game consideration. If you used legitimate in-game considerations, Shinto, all 3 Buddhists, Jewish, Confucian, Sikh and Zoroastrian are weaker than the generic pagans, while DLC Hindu and Abrahamic stuff is stronger. For some of the others I'm not sure.

It's probably not just the whole generic thing. There's also the fact that Animist/Shamanist/Totemist used to be a good bit worse and many people probably remember that more than their current state.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's probably not just the whole generic thing. There's also the fact that Animist/Shamanist/Totemist used to be a good bit worse and many people probably remember that more than their current state.

Bah, as if the majority of people here even play them. It's true they were quite a bit worse previously, but then so were Buddhist/Confucian (both of these in 1.5 times had heretic conversion events that actively harmed your unity back then and the same amount of conversion power that generic pagans get now). It's true that the ubiquitous availability of religious sacrifices as a decision and 2% strength made staying a generic pagan a lot more viable than it's ever been previously though...the first time it's a choice I have to think about if I'm not a tribal government. Christianity is obviously better (especially once you've already taken the decisions for pagan), but you have a costly switch and less appealing CB, and unlike before pagans can actually convert a little thanks to the changes to development vs conversion in provinces, non-monarch point requirement for cathedrals, and decision.

 

[Soranya]

Catholic: 29
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 22
Orthodox: 22
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:24
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 11
Vajrayana: 12
Mahayana: 3
Confucian: 7
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Pagan: 1
Inti: 21
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 21
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 20
Zoroastrian: 21

The -2 to Conversation defence is just laughable (also this doesnt apply to the player as he usualy doesnt loose land, still)
Hindu with the different Gods is very versatile, i like that.

 

[Sexual Velociraptor]

Catholic: 29
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 22
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:24
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 11
Vajrayana: 12
Mahayana: 3
Confucian: 7
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Pagan: Dead
Inti: 21
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 21
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 20
Zoroastrian: 21

Aha! Killing blow!
Also a religion made exclusively for Byzantium and then used only by Russia 99% of game is awesome.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Catholic: 29
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 23
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:24
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 11
Vajrayana: 10
Mahayana: 3
Confucian: 7
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Inti: 21
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 21
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 20
Zoroastrian: 21

Eliminated:
23. Pagan

+1, Reformed is fun

 

[Krajzen]

As opposed to, say, Jewish or Confucian? It would appear the OP's scope got trampled instantly. Oh well.

Jewish and Confucian faiths are at least roughly correct while Animism and Shamanism are conglomerates of indigenous faiths of South America, Africa and Asia (and Sami!) which is kind of a filler (and I still don't get why Kongo is shamanist while rest of Africa - animist). Of course this is thread devoted to gameplay bonuses but
Jewish advisor pool bonus > pagan bonuses
Confucian tolerance is equal to pagan -unrest or even better (and pagans have harder diplomatic life) so in such ex aequo situation I downvoted pagans, not confucians.

 

[Maeki]

Catholic: 30 Catholic bonuses are nice, if you can get enough papal influence
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 23
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:24
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 11
Vajrayana: 10
Mahayana: 3
Confucian: 5 Hm, just tolerance :/
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Inti: 21
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 21
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 20
Zoroastrian: 21

Eliminated:
23. Pagan

 

[balmung60]

Jewish and Confucian faiths are at least roughly correct while Animism and Shamanism are conglomerates of indigenous faiths of South America, Africa and Asia (and Sami!) which is kind of a filler (and I still don't get why Kongo is shamanist while rest of Africa - animist). Of course this is thread devoted to gameplay bonuses but
Jewish advisor pool bonus > pagan bonuses
Confucian tolerance is equal to pagan -unrest or even better (and pagans have harder diplomatic life) so in such ex aequo situation I downvoted pagans, not confucians.

I'd contest the quality of that advisor bonus. Before 1.12, extra advisors was a very powerful bonus that made it much easier to get the bonus and amount of MP you wanted/could afford. Now that advisors can be dismissed from the pool, it's just kinda nice and saves a few ducats.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Jewish advisor pool bonus > pagan bonuses

On what planet does +1 advisor beat out -20% stability cost, +1.5 yearly prestige, and -1 global unrest in addition to a more universally applicable bonus against unrest from the faith itself? Animist's bonuses are the equivalent of several idea group ideas ahead of Jewish, and with the DLC allowing you to simply pay to shuffle which advisors are available the Jewish bonus is even weaker. Less unrest in both true faith and wrong religion provinces, monarch point savings, and prestige lose out to an extra advisor...how exactly? I don't think you can come up with a reasonable metric for evaluating ideas where animist doesn't *trounce* Judaism.

Confucian tolerance is equal to pagan -unrest or even better (and pagans have harder diplomatic life) so in such ex aequo situation I downvoted pagans, not confucians.

No, claiming the tolerance is equal is false. TTF applies only in true faith. Heathen only applies in heathen. Animist gets -2 unrest literally everywhere without exception, at all times. That isn't the same thing at all!

Animist and Confucian can both marry outside of their religious group. The diplomatic advantage conferred to Confucian is marginal. For example trash OPM animist Manipur can find alliances before it expands, and the closest animist nation to them is Ryukyu. Being animist there isn't far removed from being Buddhist, Hindu, or Sunni. But unlike Buddhism, animist doesn't actively harm you, and unlike Confucian, it gives some legitimately strong bonuses instead of "only heretic tolerance", with conversion power added only if you throw away said heathen tolerance.

Generic pagan got ousted despite being mechanically superior in an objectively-measured sense to at least six faiths, against the stated intention of the opening post. That's somewhat disenfranchising; this thread is actually off to a worse start than the government ones. At least there the criteria being used to axe governments wasn't so consistently inaccurate, even if it was inconsistently applied.

 

[Sandcat4444]

Catholic: 30
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 23
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 11
Vajrayana: 10
Mahayana: 3
Confucian: 3
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Inti: 21
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 21
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 20
Zoroastrian: 21

Shia has 100% heir chance and a decent amount of morale, The effects from Confucian just can't match this.

Eliminated:
23. Pagan

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Heir chance is a non-viable/useless bonus, FYI. Shia is excellent in spite of having that, not because it has it.

 

[Kagemin]

Catholic: 30
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 23
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 11
Vajrayana: 10
Mahayana: 3
Confucian: 1 Very weak bonuses, and no mechanics to make up for it.
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22 All 3 of the "new" meso- and south American religions are super strong now, and while Inti's bonuses are a little weaker than the other two's it's far less annoying to pass the reforms.
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 21
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 20
Zoroastrian: 21

 

[Dario50]

Catholic: 30
Protestant: 29
Reformed: 24
Orthodox: 23
Coptic: 16
Sunni: 20
Shia:25
Ibadi: 18
Theravada: 11
Vajrayana: 10
Mahayana: 1
Confucian: 1
Shinto: 20
Hindu: 22
Sikh: 20
Inti: 22
Mayan: 18
Nahuatl: 21
Tengri: 20
Norse: 20
Jewish: 20
Zoroastrian: 21