Religion?

[Duarte]

ok let it me more clear - no big conversions between the great monotheistic religions (christianity-islam) and inside them (e.g Catholics-Protestants etc.)

And outside the unrecognized pagan-africa there were no fundamental religious conversions in the 19th century - in Japan Buddhism and Shinto were before meiji rest. no big difference - syncretism. Taiping was an exception - Exceptions prove the rule.

again, Anglicanism in south Africa versus the dutch reformed church (cape dutch and boers) Shia and sunni islam (with the barakazi dynasty essentially making all pashtuns sunni and reducing shia pashtuns to a vestigial minority) Islam vs christinaity ( in the Balkans religious conversions to either where a common affair, under the Austrian the catholic Bosnians had a marked increase, under the Ottomans many also converted to Islam by the same token many also converted away from islam post independence of their country) Islam and chrisitanity again, this time in west Africa, and do note that all of the examples given come from countries that where not particularly zealous in their conversion attempts, second none where saying that mass conversion where common merely that they did in fact happen, and that therefore should be achievable in game, a country (e.i a player) that wants to should have the ability to be the "exception" as you put it, and unless yuo are going to affirm that some religions are just better than others, any religion should be able to achieve it, and any religion should be susceptible to it.

 

[MinhowMinhow]

Pops should convert, yes, just as long as it’s based on population factors and not an EU4-style click button to spend £100 and make 1,000 people into Catholics

Not clicking a button and converting, but the player having some influence over conversions would be great.

 

[BrytonJSwan]

There are some laws that would make sense as part of the equation for how fast pops convert. Seperation of church and state laws, colonial laws, maybe even cultural acceptance laws. If there are religious schools they'd probably affect the rate as well. Additionally, the relative strength of the devout interest group maybe should have an effect as well. I think I agree with the majority here when I say I think there should be some way to effect pop religion in the game (even if to a lesser degree than past titles) but that it should mesh with the rest of the mechanics and not feel too gamey.

 

[Jamaican Castle]

Maybe there can be buildings focused on conversion, like religious missions? Then the player decides where to build and subsidize but the actual conversion is left to real pops with needs.

 

[InvisibleBison]

Exceptions prove the rule.

No they don't, or at least not in the sense that you seem to think they do. The phrase "the exception proves the rule" uses "proves" in an archaic sense to mean "test". It's saying that discovering an exception to a rule forces you to reassess whether the rule is in fact a rule or simply a coincidence that has held up for some time. To argue that evidence against your position makes your position stronger is absolutely absurd.

 

[maxk94]

again, Anglicanism in south Africa versus the dutch reformed church (cape dutch and boers) Shia and sunni islam (with the barakazi dynasty essentially making all pashtuns sunni and reducing shia pashtuns to a vestigial minority) Islam vs christinaity ( in the Balkans religious conversions to either where a common affair, under the Austrian the catholic Bosnians had a marked increase, under the Ottomans many also converted to Islam by the same token many also converted away from islam post independence of their country) Islam and chrisitanity again, this time in west Africa, and do note that all of the examples given come from countries that where not particularly zealous in their conversion attempts, second none where saying that mass conversion where common merely that they did in fact happen, and that therefore should be achievable in game, a country (e.i a player) that wants to should have the ability to be the "exception" as you put it, and unless yuo are going to affirm that some religions are just better than others, any religion should be able to achieve it, and any religion should be susceptible to it.

Nobody is against conversion per se - but completely converting India to Christianity, as is possible in EU4, should be impossible in Vic3.

 

[Al-Khalidi]

There are some laws that would make sense as part of the equation for how fast pops convert. Seperation of church and state laws, colonial laws, maybe even cultural acceptance laws. If there are religious schools they'd probably affect the rate as well. Additionally, the relative strength of the devout interest group maybe should have an effect as well. I think I agree with the majority here when I say I think there should be some way to effect pop religion in the game (even if to a lesser degree than past titles) but that it should mesh with the rest of the mechanics and not feel too gamey.

I think it was already said that religious schools increase conversion rate so by now it's confirmed that religious conversion is a thing, but indeed not to the extent visible in for example eu. (I think in vic2 there was religious conversion too but player almost didin't have any control over it)

 

[kviiri]

No they don't, or at least not in the sense that you seem to think they do. The phrase "the exception proves the rule" uses "proves" in an archaic sense to mean "test". It's saying that discovering an exception to a rule forces you to reassess whether the rule is in fact a rule or simply a coincidence that has held up for some time. To argue that evidence against your position makes your position stronger is absolutely absurd.

This is one attested origin of the phrase, but it is also actually a contract law principle dating back to Ancient Rome "exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis" roughly meaning that contracts and regulations specifying exceptions to their terms also imply the converse of said exceptions (even when the driest, most pedantic literal interpretation would not). Toy example: if a merchant sold wine, and their contract terms specified "the buyer arranges the delivery for batches larger than eight jugs", the merchant could be found to be in the wrong for refusing to arrange shipping for smaller batches, at least if they acted solely on the grounds that technically they don't promise shipping for smaller batches, only that they deny it for larger ones.

Wikipedia has a cool introduction to all common uses of the phrase: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule

 

[Duarte]

Nobody is against conversion per se - but completely converting India to Christianity, as is possible in EU4, should be impossible in Vic3.

No, it should, it absolutely should, but the actual reason why none ever attempted that should also be present, the absolute guarantee of a subcontinent wide revolt, the Sepoy Rebellion was started* by something as minor as the grease on the cartridges being a potential avenue of losing caste, not to mention allegations of it being a ploy to convert India to Christianity where also part of what led to the revolt tough admittedly less of a factor, I shudder to think at what would happen where some one to really try it, because lets walk through the steps needed (afawk) to achieve substantial religious conversion, first have the State religion law, second have the religious schools institution, third and most important, incorporate the entirety of india, since has the dev's have said unincorporated territories do not get the full benefits from institutions but also generate no political clout meaning that they generate less unrest, attempting this, virtually guarantees (bankruptcy for one) that massive rebellions will happen semi-regularly unless the player is willing to pay both the high monetary and human cost to achieve it.
In short the benefits will be dubious at best, the cost will be colossal, it is literally in the players best (economic at the absolute minimum) interest to not do it, but it should definitely be achievable in theory.

 

[Eltener]

Not clicking a button and converting, but the player having some influence over conversions would be great.

It should depend on laws imo. A Papal united Italy should most likely be able to be quite aggressive with forced conversion. On the other hand, pluralistic countries like Great Britain/the United Kingdom shouldn't even have the option unless they're able to bring in major legal reform.

 

[Ivashanko]

No they don't, or at least not in the sense that you seem to think they do. The phrase "the exception proves the rule" uses "proves" in an archaic sense to mean "test". It's saying that discovering an exception to a rule forces you to reassess whether the rule is in fact a rule or simply a coincidence that has held up for some time. To argue that evidence against your position makes your position stronger is absolutely absurd.

To be fair, that expression has other meanings. Sometimes exceptions really do 'prove' that there are other rules in place.

For instance: 'No parking allowed Saturday' strongly suggests that parking is allowed every other day of the week.

Edit: ninja'd.

 

[Kovax]

I do hope that it will be far more important than in vicky 2 which felt just tacked on.

Tacked on, with a few weird implications. Note that many of the German states in V2 had a few Catholic brigades in their armies, which eventually imploded when enough of their constituency converted to the state religion. You then had to build entirely new replacement units, rather than fill out the missing manpower with other recruits.

There should be a few mechanisms for affecting the rate of religious conversion, each with a cost of some kind to make it debatable as to the wisdom of implementing it. Forcing or promoting conversion should not be a "no brainer" in the game, but a possibility if you're willing to pay the steep price in unrest, loss of productivity, and/or negative reputation with similar IGs worldwide for doing so: "Why do all of the {insert religion here} hate me?"