Religion in Stellaris

[Yenzen]

Then this would be a different church of the same faith.

What?

I don't know man, do you considering having no robots having a type of robot, the "No robot type"? I find it weird to define my lack declared faith to be a type of faith, when everyone else disbelieves thousands of faiths, just one less :-/.

Atheism is just the lack of any faith, it doesn't come with any other requirements, you don't have to care about science, you don't have to be a member of any particular group and you don't even have to care about discussing religion at all.

An overall atheist nation could easily be neutral on the materialism/spiritualism axis, if there wasn't a great drive for science either.

 

[Fonz]

The problem with religion giving whatever Bonuses is that atheists empires will always be at a disadvantage. Even if you have disadvantages to each tenet, the player can still streamline their tenets to serve a specific goal. This would also mean that every empire in the game will have some sort of religion, which will be quite odd as somehow every single species in this galaxy evolved to worship something.

Gameplay wise, how would you implement a religion-spread system that is both engaging to the player, interact-able, while not being micro intensive like missionary spamming in Civ.

 

[Fonz]

I don't know man, do you considering having no robots having a type of robot, the "No robot type"? I find it weird to define my lack declared faith to be a type of faith, when everyone else disbelieves thousands of faiths, just one less :-/.

Atheism is just the lack of any faith, it doesn't come with any other requirements, you don't have to care about science, you don't have to be a member of any particular group and you don't even have to care about discussing religion at all.

A: Hey what car do you drive?
B: oh I don't have a car
A: Oh you have the "no car" car Yea that's a pretty good car, I like that brand
B: ...

 

[Kordishal]

There is major mechnaical difference in that in "science" laymen put their faith in experts who derive their knowledge from observable evidence. Theoretically a layman can study up to a point where he is at least literate in a field and can judge it for himself to a degree. In religion, even the experts need to put their faith in unknown and unobservable, and laymen lack ability to self-verify. Pope cannot prove that Arianism is wrong, though he might dictate so.

A difference yes. But not really on a mechanical level. In a science "religion" the theologians would be scientists and in any other religion they would be theologians. And anyone can train to become a theologian.

And nothing hinders theologians to observe the universe. They will just sometime use scripture to fill in blanks. And sometimes they will use scriptures to change what the truth is supposed to be. This usually helps with controlling populations, but might make it hard to accept some scientific results. On the other hand you have the Amarr in EvE-Online which tend to take technology and announce it gods will.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Then this would be a different church of the same faith.

The problem is that Atheism in and of itself is NOT an ideology, they can adapt any ideology which do not contain any supernatural elements.

In the western world today most Atheists adapt a humanistic ideology (but is not really organized) while other non religions can adapt very different ideologies such as the forced communistic ideology of the early soviet era.

I don't think that Stellaris really need any developed religions model... most religion would break apart long before reaching the scope to be a factor in Stellaris. The Spiritual ethos are good enough to represent religions pops.

 

[KonradKurze202]

That is true to some extent. But I think once we actually meet aliens religions will adapt to that. Additionally you can make it so that your religion will not spread to Xenos at all.

Well, given how much trouble modern religions have adapting to gay, transgender, anything-different-what-so-ever, I'd say no. Real world religions wouldn't be able to adapt to something that is actually for the first time a different race. And if some religions aren't interested in spreading that is taking a major feature and excluding all but 10% of empires from participating in it (admittedly all the Republic features in Ck2 are pretty much doing the same thing).
I think it might be able to be created and make some sense as a full sized DLC, but it needs a lot of features to make it work: religions would need a bunch of properties: is this a religion that can spread to aliens? is this a religion that can extend past phenotype limits? is this a religion that worships a diety of a species or does it worship something more neutral (the sun, the living force, the precursors [from millions of years ago, not the Fallen Empires still existing])?
It would need to be a whole lot more complex than EU4 religions and so would require so much effort that the devs need to ask if it is worth it to put in Religion over Espionage, Trade, Super Projects, expanded Federation mechanics, etc. I'm not saying its not, but it would have to be a very well done and intricate system to make sense giving it priority over the other DLC features.

 

[Pandoricus]

Well I enslaved the bird people and made them worship humans who as far as they know (destroyed their history of worshiping the great wing) made them in our own image. Cause with things like the blorg, ain't no one made them in their own image, so we follow a mutual policy of crusades against sensless friendship.

 

[Teije]

Sorry, don't see the point of this. We already have CK2 and EU4 for anyone wanting religion in the grand strategy gaming experience.

The ethoi available in Stellaris cover things adequately and are much broader in application than then faith in a specific belief system of pantheon, without getting into all the human baggage that comes along whenever the word "religion" is used.

 

[Zelius]

A difference yes. But not really on a mechanical level. In a science "religion" the theologians would be scientists and in any other religion they would be theologians. And anyone can train to become a theologian.

There are similarities on the most basic level, but you are assuming non-religious people would pay as much attention to scientists as religious people to their spiritual leaders.

I believe the point AD Monster was trying to make can be illustrated thus:
Religious: "I believe in my [spiritual leader] about [aspect of faith]. He seems to be trustworthy and has some sort of spiritual advantage that gives him better insight into the divine."
Atheist: "I think that Prof. [scientist] is correct about [physical phenomenon]. Not because I trust him, but because his experiment was elegant and 20 other studies have followed his method and found the same result. But if someone disproves [scientist] I will give that person the same amount of attention."

So if you train as a theologian you will have the skills to... not adhere to someone else's world view? But if you train as a scientist you will have to skills to repeat those experiments and possibly find better answers; it's not their opinion against yours. Indeed science is based largely on people trying to disprove each other - in its purest form anyhow.


Of course IRL most people subscribe to neither very much; the Bible tells you nothing about how to drive a car etc. while basic morals are easily taught without it, while most interaction with science is blindly regurgitating whatever sensationalist news the mass media is selling (new cure for cancer? Yeah right, I'll see you again after stage 4 clinical trials, if you make it that far).

 

[Miro_pl96]

I don't think religion should be implemented.
Also you have a ideology written with those religions (and no its not atheism)

 

[Finnway]

@Kordishal Here is how I imagine religion being implemented in Stellaris.

Religion essentially gives your POPs an additional trait. These bonuses are minor and one-dimensional e.g. army damage, energy credits, growth, etc. You get to name your own religion.

There are policies that determine your governments attitude towards religion.

• "State Religion" means what it implies.
• "Tolerant" means other religions are second-class citizens.
  
• "Secularism" is what it implies. No state religion, but very weak religious bonuses.

The strength of the bonus granted by religion scales with a few things. These include your empires policy towards the religion, whether the POP is spiritual, and the happiness of the POP.

POPs with a different religion than the state religion will be unhappy if they live in a sector with a governor who belongs to a different religion.

Other empires will be unhappy with you if have POPs with their religion in your empire and you persecute them ("State Religion," or "Tolerant."). Or if you have a different religion than them and they are fanatic Spiritualists.

Materialist and Individualist locks off the "State Religion" policy. Spiritualist and Collectivist locks off "Secularism." And Fanatic Collectivist locks everything except State Religion.

There is a "neutral" religious trait called "agnostic" which gives its own bonus (probably -Xenophobia). This is the trait for anyone who doesn't want a religion. And yes, you can be "agnostic" and Fanatic Collectivist, but a Fanatic Collectivist will impose agnosticism on the entire population.

 

[Exemplar Voss]

Religion happens below the POP level, so is out of touch with the gameplay of Stellaris.

 

[Nuril]

I don't think Stellaris ought to be too specific w/ religious stuff.

But if it hypothetically wasn't abstract then the simplest and least provocative way of phrasing this is "X/Y/Z and None". Then it's specifically the absence of a religion giving whatever modifiers, not "Religion: Atheism".

 

[XRW]

OK. I think you have a great idea. Now I task you with suggesting a classification system of religions and all of the different tenets and policies along with their bonuses. Do all this without offending anyone.

 

[NakedBeast]

This part is brilliant:


Population

Each population is a member of a church. It derives bonuses and penalties from this church. Each
population has a preference for each tenet which depend on their ethos, traits and government policies.

Strength of Faith
The strength of faith in a population determines how much the church will influence them. Changes
become more likely as a population becomes unhappier. Which direction this change will occur is
random, but heavily weighted whether the church increases or decreases happiness overall.

Fundamentalist. Fundamentalists will be affected by the churches tenets very strongly. They will not
change their preferences over time and they will be very unhappy about them. Unhappy fundamentalists
are likely to create a new church or join one that fits their ethos and preferences better. Locked if:
Fanatic Materialist/Materialist.

Believer. These populations receive the normal bonuses and penalties of the church. They dislike
change, but not as much as fundamentalists. Locked of: Fanatic Materialist.

Agnostic. These populations will only be slightly affected by the church. Changes do not phase them
much. Locked if: Fanatic Spiritualist.

Indifferent. These populations are not affected by the church. They will also not create new churches if
they are unhappy. They will only become agnostic if the church increases their happiness. Locked if:
Fanatic Spiritualist/Spiritualist.

 

[Pandoricus]

I think if implemented correctly (as close as anyone can get with this topic) it can add an incredibly fun gameplay element that adds to the story generation of the game. There can be value in adding it.

 

[EmperorZelos]

I really don't think there is that much of a difference (at least mechanically). It is a really decentralized religion. They believe that there is no deity. Their scripture is the scientific method. And they really dislike if not outright hate people of other faiths.

Pretty much the same thing to me.

Wrong on all accounts, it's not a religion, it has no system of beliefs, atheism is not belief that here is no deity, it's that they DON'T believe in a deity. The former is a subset of the latter, and they have nos cripture and the latter is anti-theism not atheism.

 

[Druesling]

I think it's the right decision not having specific religions in game.
The OP did a lot of work thinking that idea though, but it's pretty much covered with the ethoses, and putting it in like described, is like implementing different eye colors for the pops.

 

[SWVRoma]

I think if implemented correctly (as close as anyone can get with this topic) it can add an incredibly fun gameplay element that adds to the story generation of the game. There can be value in adding it.

I agree, really. The lack of religion and/or culture in Stellaris seems to be a bit of a disappointment. Either options would be amazing for RP reasons, but from a game mechanics standpoint, one nation's religion/culture is likely to bleed over into a weaker neighboring nation's and influence their populations. The nearby colonies should be converted (culturally or religiously) and secessionist movements or rebellions could be based on that factor alone (giving you a chance to support such movements ideally). Or at least they should protest if their government wars against or opposes somehow their favored neighbor.

Just seems like a fun aspect that hopefully they'll eventually add in. This way we can have a national culture separate from our various races. Yes, it'd likely have ethos similar to the founding race, but could be influenced as other races gain positions of prominence (if such edicts are passed).

 

[Ezumiyr]

Religions in Stellaris ? Why not. Religions are always a fun thing in games, and they could add to the feeling of exploring the unknown and the uncanny.

But I'm not sure that distinctions like "polytheism or monotheism ?" (which is a very occidental/muslim view on religion, by the way - I'm not even sure that true Monotheism exists, and gods are not even necessary to define a religion), creation myths or the position about the after life are pertinent in a sci fi setting. They are not even pertinent when we consider religion in a social/anthropological (instead of doctrinal/theological) aspect : what matters are the rites, the things you can or can't do, things like that.
If we put aside the religious fanatic / materialist opposition that is already in game, what's remaining ? Here are a few things I could think of.

1. the war-friendlyness of the religion. Do I need to fight to prove my faith ? Is there some kind of crusade ?
   
2. Taboos. Do I have the right to deal with money ? Is poverty a good way to prove my faith ? Is sex reserved to a specific cast ?
   
3. Conservatism. Do my faith prevent me to eat something that isn't from my planet ? Do I have the right to travel to another planet without the permission of the clergy ? Are there casts ?
   
4. Superstitions. Do I consider aliens as thinking beings, or are they demons/ghosts/illusions ? Do aliens need to have a specific behaviour towards us ? Do we tolerate winged aliens (if wings are associated with evil in that religion) ?
5. Tolerance. Do I accept other religions ?

Which could lead to different consequences. Some examples :

1. Would not necessarily mean that an empire with this religion is more aggressive. But it would certainly respect brutal force, and it could grant a special claim type.
2. This could provide several malus or bonus. If poverty is well seen in a religion, malus to credit production. This could allow religions to work like traits : selecting a malus could allow you to spend more points in valuable religious traits.
3. This could allow Pops to make pilgrimages (special kind of migration that would provide more credits). A cast of sacred warriors is likely to grant both bonus (they are very skilled) and malus (they are not very prone to change, so lack of adaptability).
   
4. Could lead to specific opinion bonus/malus against certain species types. If a specific ritual is needed upon colonizing new planets, liek the requirement to bring a holy plant required for rituals that would colonize the planet, it would increase the time needed for colonization but grant a light bonus to habitability.
   
5. Could change xenophobia/xenophilia.

The problem is that in fact, religion is part of culture. Taboos, superstitions, and beliefs in general are essentially cultural.