Nice idea, let priest go out into foraign lands,the_shy_kid said:
and convert the world to the 'one true faith'
Religion in EU
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and convert the world to the 'one true faith'
jorian said:Nice idea, let priest go out into foraign lands,
and convert the world to the 'one true faith'
That's what some people would do anyway.
My point is that if 75% of your provinces aren't, say, Protestant, there is almost no incentive to convert to Protestantism. This wasn't historically the case. But I'm no game developer so I'll be quiet now.
Anything can happen, and happened in real History, so I don't like the idea of restictionsthe_shy_kid said:That's what some people would do anyway.
My point is that if 75% of your provinces aren't, say, Protestant, there is almost no incentive to convert to Protestantism. This wasn't historically the case. But I'm no game developer so I'll be quiet now.
It would also depend where in Europe you were as well and who you talked to.MrT said:
By late 17-18th century i'd say most learned indivisuals knew there were different branches of Buddhism. They may still have classified Cofuscianism as a religion, but i know the debate would have been started already.
Religion became less of an "us" "them" issue later in the game.
Now the average joe of that era, well it really depended upon where he was. Sometimes anyone who didn't think like he did was a heretic and if he didn't believe in a chrisitan god, well he was a heathen or pagan. The words were interchangable.
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Precisely. So lumpiing a number of very subtly-distinct variants of what most Europeans of the time would have considered as being at about the same level of distinction as the various sub-orders of Catholicism isn't such a stretch. I'm not saying that it should be distilled to religion = catholic or not catholic, but I see little point of trying to model the ~4000 different religions of the world at the time (considering about 2000 different "pagan" sects, etc.); and I can see a world of problems on how to design a game engine that doesn't go completely haywire with even 1/10th of that. So limiting and/or generalizing has to occur at some level.
There is a standard law of computer game design that says that the more complex you try to make a game, the worse it will generally perform (particularly the AI). Simplification, although a poorer model of "reality", often makes for better performance and a superior gaming experience. The trick is to find the right balance between the two extremes and to stick to it.
There is a standard law of computer game design that says that the more complex you try to make a game, the worse it will generally perform (particularly the AI). Simplification, although a poorer model of "reality", often makes for better performance and a superior gaming experience. The trick is to find the right balance between the two extremes and to stick to it.
Well no matter what the outcome, I am sure if there are extra tags open for modders, everyone will be happy.
the_shy_kid said:
Definately.
While I'm not an expert on whether Lutherism was strong in England, I always thought it weird that so many English provinces would go to Protestantism even if you decided not to go along with the Act of Supremacy.
When a player decides to change state religion, I certainly don't think it would be unreasonable for him/her to get a few 'free' provincial conversions. Of course, those provinces wouldn't be so eager to go back to the old religion if the player decided to go back for some reason. (A good way to discourage Religion-flopping of those who want certain bonuses some of the time and other bonuses other times)
Hyzhenhok said:
There were quite a few Lutherans in England late in the reign of Henry, & under Edward, remembering that at that time it was more a matter of a movement than a church. The Anglican settlement effectively pre-empted them. But the 2 were always relatively close; intermarriage was less of an issue here than otherwise, George I (& Handel) seemed to adapt well enough, Swift specifically uses Martin as the most sensibile of the 3 brothers in Tale of a Tub (vs Peter & Jack). Even the very high-church Abp Laud was reluctant, in his debate with Fisher, to unchurch the Lutherans, despite their shaky theory of the episcopacy.
However, what Protestantism means, in the 16th C, in the absence of status as a state church, is a good question.
Obviously. And really, compared to EU2, my proposal would add only 1 new total religion which isn't that much more and would be able to have much better impact in the game which would affect europe as well. Otherwise we end up like CK and the lack of Shiite/Sunni split and the problems it causes. Compared to what was done from EU1-EU2 the proposal is not asking for a major increase. And its not like i'd have anything against more catholic branches if there was a need for them as well, but most people have said they work fine, save for the bugs with CRC.MrT said:
But more than that i want a some free user religious tags as well. Then the whole debate about what religion should be in to some extent can be left to modders.
except that where would we put these extra buddhists?Jinnai said:
certainly I'd be all for extra tags for modding, but i simply can't see the logic behind the need for a "pure land" buddhism as a religion as opposed to confucianism.
I would argue for keeping the number of "world religions" small and adding local flavor to them through historical events. For example, I, for one, would like to see the "religion" Counter-Reformation Catholicism eliminated and replaced with a "Council of Trent" HE that gives all Catholic countries a choice between accepting the reforms and refusing them -- with a huge list of benefits/drawbacks for each choice (including the benefits currently associated with manually changing over to CRC in EU2). I think that system could be used to model the other subsects that emerge during the course of the game. It seems like that's the only way the game can even represent a "minority" religion. If the sect didn't become a historical geopolitical force (during the game time), then all that matters is how the countries involved react to thier emergence/existence. Beyond that, as far as I'm concerned, let the modders mod.
The whole question, though, assumes the current EU2 religious tolerence system, which is something of a joke and needs to be jettisoned in favor of something else. In the name of keeping things simple, I like the idea of a "religious tolerence" slider on the DP menu. People of this time -- especially Europeans -- really did view the world in terms of your (state) religion, compatible religions, and everyone else. Of course, what was "compatible" and "Other" changed over time and in response to events, but that's easy enough to simulate. Given that paradigm, how does adding even one new religion to the mix really change anything? Less is more sometimes...
The whole question, though, assumes the current EU2 religious tolerence system, which is something of a joke and needs to be jettisoned in favor of something else. In the name of keeping things simple, I like the idea of a "religious tolerence" slider on the DP menu. People of this time -- especially Europeans -- really did view the world in terms of your (state) religion, compatible religions, and everyone else. Of course, what was "compatible" and "Other" changed over time and in response to events, but that's easy enough to simulate. Given that paradigm, how does adding even one new religion to the mix really change anything? Less is more sometimes...
Exactly. The cross they get is also cool.jorian said:Me too, i always get the 'lost sheeps back into the fold'
But I would like the possibility not to agree to that treaty, and stay counter-catholicYakman said:
As stated, even in this era, Confuscianism was debated as to whether it was a religion by westerners.Yakman said:
And the problem is Confusciansim doesn't follow the same rules as other relgions. Even hinduism, something completely differeent from Chrsitianity has more in common for EI2 with western religious model than Confuscianism.
- Confusciansim doesn't seek to convert. This is because its a secular system which means:
- Confuscianism treats all religions equally, unless they are truly trying to undermine its fundimental core of secular honorbound system. Even then it doesn't seek to conert and its mostly the people in the system that take the differance in treatment, not the system itself
- Confusciansim does not care about the spiritual one iota. In fact at its core, confuscianism says spiritual can't exist. This is in fact why Buddhism was able to gain as much inroads as it was. Sure there was Taoism, but it didn't quite meat the people's needs and neither would Confuscianism.
- Confusiansim only operates as a "state religion" because the people are far more buddhist in their beliefs than Confuscinist. Their practices mimic buddhist/taoist philosophies, rituals, legends. Sure elements of Confuscianism play a role, but not nearly to the extent you think. The state level is completely reversed.
- Confuscianst and Buddhist and moreso Taoist actually continued to have until the communist uprising power stuggles within the adminstration. Even if they weren't hard core. This isn't the same as a protestant and catholic under the same roof, in some ways its actually worse. Atleast the prot and cath actually believe in the same god and ultimate goal.
Jinnai said:
- Or you are Mohammedan. Or Christian. Or Hindu. In other words, not Chinese.
This is why there's all that ancestor worship, correct? Chinese religion is a mishmash of local beliefs, Buddhism, Taoism, etc..
The Chinese are not Buddhists. They are Chinese. Everything gets mixed together--religion is like a good luck charm there. Above all else, Chinese are Chinese, which means they are Confucians.