Religion in EU

[Symmetry]

You are not going to tell me that a nation that does not even have a coracle is going to turn out a Caravel including all its fittings through the apprentice system

Indeed, it would be quite impossible for a nation that doesn't even have a coracle to turn out a caravel, through the apprentice system or through any other means. Translations of Portugues or Spanish ship-building instruction manuals would probably have helped the Aztecs learn to build ships, but realistically large scale shipbuilding required the sort of infrastructure and metal tools that the Aztecs lacked.

However, the Aztecs didn't just did indeed have books writen on paper and hide. See here.

 

[Smirfy]

Indeed, it would be quite impossible for a nation that doesn't even have a coracle to turn out a caravel, through the apprentice system or through any other means. Translations of Portugues or Spanish ship-building instruction manuals would probably have helped the Aztecs learn to build ships, but realistically large scale shipbuilding required the sort of infrastructure and metal tools that the Aztecs lacked.

In other words it is not really sensible to devote large scale programming time and testing to something that can be modeled simply

However, the Aztecs didn't just did indeed have books writen on paper and hide. See here.

I don't want to be insulting to any culture, Native American culture both north and south has always interested me but it was simply not capable to facilitate or sustain technological advance.

 

[arcorelli]

Nonsense they had no capability to comunicate complex ideas. Only with outside investment as represented in Victoria could these nations advance.

No capability to communicate complex ideas? Smirfy, the Aztecs, Maya and Incas were not technologically advanced and all you like, but that the Maya got no capability to communicate complex ideas with their writing is simply nonsense. Any of their preserved codices shows oterwise (and yep, the Maya got writing).

So, better use another argument (because the conclusion is altogether sound)

 

[Smirfy]

No capability to communicate complex ideas? Smirfy, the Aztecs, Maya and Incas were not technologically advanced and all you like, but that the Maya got no capability to communicate complex ideas with their writing is simply nonsense. Any of their preserved codices shows oterwise (and yep, the Maya got writing).

So, better use another argument (because the conclusion is altogether sound)

Hieroglyphics is hardly Plato's Republic now is it. When Scholars use the word sophisticated its a bit like describing someone as cute

Language, writing then the printing press are the important things in the devolution of knowledge. The Incan Mayan and Aztec civilizations were exceptional never argued otherwise so was the Greek and Roman, trouble is EU starts in 1453

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I don't want to be insulting to any culture, Native American culture both north and south has always interested me but it was simply not capable to facilitate or sustain technological advance.

Not at the rate and types used in Europe, but FE, the Mayan calander was far more accurate than Europes.

And if they were incapable of development, well then they'd still all be living in the neolithic period, however, they did know the basics of metallurgy, atleast central americans.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Language, writing then the printing press are the important things in the devolution of knowledge. The Incan Mayan and Aztec civilizations were exceptional never argued otherwise so was the Greek and Roman, trouble is EU starts in 1453

Also the domestication of the horse or other similar pack animals, but mostly the horse is key. This allowed for faster communication than one could travel on foot thus allowing infromation and ideas to flow faster. The use of a wheel to carry goods around with packanimals also allowed the faster flow of goods between areas thus improving the rate of economic growth of Eurasia.

 

[Smirfy]

Not at the rate and types used in Europe, but FE, the Mayan calander was far more accurate than Europes.

And if they were incapable of development, well then they'd still all be living in the neolithic period, however, they did know the basics of metallurgy, atleast central americans.

They used stone daggers and obsidian (volcanic glass) tipped spears

What is tech 2 going to be, bronze tipped spears?

 

[Smirfy]

Also the domestication of the horse or other similar pack animals, but mostly the horse is key. This allowed for faster communication than one could travel on foot thus allowing infromation and ideas to flow faster. The use of a wheel to carry goods around with packanimals also allowed the faster flow of goods between areas thus improving the rate of economic growth of Eurasia.

How far away is smelting steel from horse back riding?

 

[joriandrake]

Actually, the one time I've helped build a boat ( it was all verbal instruction, no need for writing at all and I'm pretty sure that an aprenticeship system could handle it. The boat was just a dingy, but the boat did have a keel and ribs contruction of a similar sort to what caravels used. Its also important to remember that the vast majority of the people building these boats would be illiterate.

Writing can be made also on stone, pergaments, leather...and also there can be 'writings' like knots on a rope.

 

[joriandrake]

How far away is smelting steel from horse back riding?

That depends, many tribes didn't have it, but lots of them did...it like with all nations. Egypt didn't have ironworks, but was 'better' as his neighbours (mostly) they had it.
Also Hungarians had ironsmiths for arrowheads and spears and swords ( also for equipment of horses)

 

[Registered]

Writing can be made also on stone, pergaments, leather...and also there can be 'writings' like knots on a rope.

Regardless of material, you still need a script and littaracy. Both of which were lacking with the Incans. (knotted cords are just not the same)

 

[joriandrake]

(knotted cords are just not the same)

They are.

 

[Smirfy]

That depends, many tribes didn't have it, but lots of them did...it like with all nations. Egypt didn't have ironworks, but was 'better' as his neighbours (mostly) they had it.
Also Hungarians had ironsmiths for arrowheads and spears and swords ( also for equipment of horses)

Thats the point Egypt was in its heyday in the years BC it can be argued that it was as advanced than any American civilization. The game starts in 1453 AD

 

[joriandrake]

Thats the point Egypt was in its heyday in the years BC it can be argued that it was as advanced than any American civilization. The game starts in 1453 AD

Thats not the point, the point is it doesnt matter if you don't write, or don't know ironworks. More less 'civilised' nations can also be a threat to 'civilized' ones. And size of armies also matter.
(You go with a minigun against a big tribe, but if they fanatically fight you, they get close, and one stone knife can kill you)

 

[Smirfy]

Thats not the point, the point is it doesnt matter if you don't write, or don't know ironworks. More less 'civilised' nations can also be a threat to 'civilized' ones. And size of armies also matter.
(You go with a minigun against a big tribe, but if they fanatically fight you, they get close, and one stone knife can kill you)

I have nothing against weight of numbers with regards pagans, as long the fact that 200 Spaniards conquered Peru is modeled

 

[joriandrake]

I have nothing against weight of numbers with regards pagans, as long the fact that 200 Spaniards conquered Peru is modeled

They feared the unknown people, it had nothing to do with technical advancement.

 

[Smirfy]

They feared the unknown people, it had nothing to do with technical advancement.

OMG

 

[unmerged(20048)]

Stonemasonary, mathmatics,the ability to build roads, agriculture and astronomy are as old as civilization itself. They were generally taught master to apprentice

But when a process becomes more complicated like for instance building a caravel I'm sure there was quill and paper involved somewhere

There might have been writing involved. But again don't tell me that a nation capable of building a palaces like macchu picchu or huge pyramids isn't capable of building cannons or caravels if a someone wen't abroad and learned the technique. The vikings build longships (I know, not caravels but still quite advanced) and developed good navigation techniques without significant writing so it is definately possible right? Pagan nations shouldn't possess direct technological penalties that is just wrong.
Personally I hope paradox decides to include a tech-spreading system like in CK. If they do the pagans could be kept backwards by letting techs spread much faster between two christian countries than between a christian and pagan country. IMHO this would model what could have happened had the american civilizations survived much better. I think that they would have had the oppurtunity to develop into powerful regional if somewhat backward powers sort of like china and japan in the period.

 

[Registered]

They are.

The Quipu system was for statistics. Not something you could write, say, a manual on gunsmithing in.

they get close, and one stone knife can kill you)

How does it get through your steel breastplate though?

They feared the unknown people, it had nothing to do with technical advancement.

I'm sure that using steel swords against cotton armour offered the Spaniards no advantage whatsoever

 

[unmerged(20048)]

I have nothing against weight of numbers with regards pagans, as long the fact that 200 Spaniards conquered Peru is modeled

Actually I think the conquistador campaigns are much better driven either by events or by some conquistador unit. Guile, coincidence (aztec religion speaking of gods arriving from the sea) and timing (the incas had just had a huge civil war) was certainly a much bigger factor than actual warfare where the technological advantages would be seen.
I have nothing against 1000 musket armed soldiers with cannons defeating 20000 indians but 200 in a regular fight against an empire that's rediculous and you know it.