Relatively new cheat (sort of)

[unmerged(36024)]

Well, discoverer of this cheat boost his techs to x/x/10/10 in 1500 with France from minor.
I myself made 11/5/8/8 in 1560 with Muscowy/Russia on last beta.

The method is - make youself large, raise you tech almost to grow a level, then reduce youself by vassals and losing 1-month wars to someone having shields on you territories. It gives you 3 l-ups instead of 1 for your money, then repeat. (Called Dinamical tech boost (c)Tonio on Russian forum)

Suggestion: Make Size, Religion, Vassal and HRE modifiers damage/boost your investments instead of modifying your tech cost (so you'll have stable (relatively) techcost and your investment is divided by modifier)

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Patches are cattered towards MP, and it shows. They introduce severe disturbances (like trade agreements huge penalty on TE, and funky straits). Now we see how the release vassal bonus in tech can be exploited to the ridiculous.

 

[unmerged(36024)]

Patches are cattered towards MP, and it shows. They introduce severe disturbances (like trade agreements huge penalty on TE, and funky straits). Now we see how the release vassal bonus in tech can be exploited to the ridiculous.

It's not release vassal bonus.
It' can be done without releasing ANY vassal (and easily).
It was here ALWAYS.
It's working due to fact, that if you have around 88 prov, going 1 lev up in tech costs you 4 times more in tech cost.
Now, you go to almost complete research at 88 prov (or around 30 for 3x) for lev.2 in trade and infra, declare war to shield holders (which you keep for the reason) of all of you provinces, then one month later make peace with them, reducing your country to 1-prov minor. Guess what? You tech now 3 or 4 times cheaper, so you get 2-3 lv-ups in a row in trade and infra, and hit the ahead of time penalty. Then repeat the procedure.

Actually, releasing vassals is easing your return to power. But in my case I just plunder all British islands and Spain in time of release, so i make peace with them and get their provs as soon as techs stop raising (1 tech lev per month limit )) back to 30 something provs.

And you just don't really get REAL bonus from vassals in techs - less then 1 province discount linked in a cap with number of provinces is NOTHING.

 

[Old Joe]

It's not release vassal bonus.
It' can be done without releasing ANY vassal (and easily).
It was here ALWAYS.
It's working due to fact, that if you have around 88 prov, going 1 lev up in tech costs you 4 times more in tech cost.
Now, you go to almost complete research at 88 prov (or around 30 for 3x) for lev.2 in trade and infra, declare war to shield holders (which you keep for the reason) of all of you provinces, then one month later make peace with them, reducing your country to 1-prov minor. Guess what? You tech now 3 or 4 times cheaper, so you get 2-3 lv-ups in a row in trade and infra, and hit the ahead of time penalty. Then repeat the procedure.

Actually, releasing vassals is easing your return to power. But in my case I just plunder all British islands and Spain in time of release, so i make peace with them and get their provs as soon as techs stop raising (1 tech lev per month limit )) back to 30 something provs.

And you just don't really get REAL bonus from vassals in techs - less then 1 province discount linked in a cap with number of provinces is NOTHING.

its not a brokerage simulator to bumping with provinces like this huh? its like historical game, this is still redicilous even for cheat, if game engine allow it its just a funny bug, beating ai with this just same if to wright million times event94046 in f12

 

[unmerged(19042)]

Its a bit exploitative isnt it...whats the fun in SP then? And in MP if you do that I imagine the other players will annex your one province runt pronto. I suppose France or Russia (in later scnarios) would be the best for this, large tarting territories and lots of potential vassals, all cores which can be reaquired without BB?

 

[unmerged(6147)]

It's not release vassal bonus.
It' can be done without releasing ANY vassal (and easily).
It was here ALWAYS.
It's working due to fact, that if you have around 88 prov, going 1 lev up in tech costs you 4 times more in tech cost.
Now, you go to almost complete research at 88 prov (or around 30 for 3x) for lev.2 in trade and infra, declare war to shield holders (which you keep for the reason) of all of you provinces, then one month later make peace with them, reducing your country to 1-prov minor. Guess what? You tech now 3 or 4 times cheaper, so you get 2-3 lv-ups in a row in trade and infra, and hit the ahead of time penalty. Then repeat the procedure.

Actually, releasing vassals is easing your return to power. But in my case I just plunder all British islands and Spain in time of release, so i make peace with them and get their provs as soon as techs stop raising (1 tech lev per month limit )) back to 30 something provs.

And you just don't really get REAL bonus from vassals in techs - less then 1 province discount linked in a cap with number of provinces is NOTHING.

A little difficult to understand all of what you say. But apparently you DOW a lot and take a lot of provinces in offensive wars. Appears to cost a lot of BB points.

Some of the things I do not understand

1. To reach 10/10 in trade and Infra in 1500 sounds incredible. Could you please explain again how you do it. Just the base cost for economic techs are several 1000s of ducats. Add to that the ahead of time penalty. It is hard to earn that much money that early in the game.

2. "It's working due to fact, that if you have around 88 prov, going 1 lev up in tech costs you 4 times more in tech cost"

More than what? Than if you had 1 province?


3."(or around 30 for 3x)"

What do you mean?


4. "then one month later make peace with them, reducing your country to 1-prov minor. "

How can you go from 88 provinces to 1 province by making at most six peace deals? Or do they always send a peace proposal themselves, at the start of the war, in which they demand their shield province? Or was it not 88 provinces from start? I assume that you reach 1 also by creating vassals (as you said in the previous post).

There are so many question marks that an exact example would be most wellcome Minusa.

---------------

Besides, to me this is not a cheat. It is an exploit

 

[unmerged(29041)]

I see.
So it works well for countries that have other nations claims in all their territory. It would not work so well for Spain, and it would not work at all for isolated countries like Ethiopia.
Basically you feed a large country economy into research, but you get a small country benefit by instantly reducing your size.

To maximize efficiency you have to reduce to size 1, but in any case you should reduce to less than 8, no? If you have more than 8 provinces that nobody can claim or releasable as vassal it won't work well, right?

This puts a lot of constrains about how you have to expand in the first place, unless you are France, but then you don't need to boost your tech, France is too easy.

 

[unmerged(36024)]

A little difficult to understand all of what you say. But apparently you DOW a lot and take a lot of provinces in offensive wars. Appears to cost a lot of BB points.

Well, it's always a way to get only 1 bb - play at "furious" and get some BB in some first defensive wars, raise and diploannex a hamster (Sweden for me, good, patriotic AI, ready to annex on my command) - and you are over 1/2 limit.
And rebellions (and Event-annexions) are BB-free

1. To reach 10/10 in trade and Infra in 1500 sounds incredible. Could you please explain again how you do it. Just the base cost for economic techs are several 1000s of ducats. Add to that the ahead of time penalty. It is hard to earn that much money that early in the game.

Well - it's not me. I'm at 11/5/8/8 in 1560

2. "It's working due to fact, that if you have around 88 prov, going 1 lev up in tech costs you 4 times more in tech cost"
More than what? Than if you had 1 province?

More than 1-province minor

3."(or around 30 for 3x)"
What do you mean?

around 30 provs for 3x tech cost in comparison to 1-prov.

4. "then one month later make peace with them, reducing your country to 1-prov minor. "
How can you go from 88 provinces to 1 province by making at most six peace deals? Or do they always send a peace proposal themselves, at the start of the war, in which they demand their shield province? Or was it not 88 provinces from start? I assume that you reach 1 also by creating vassals (as you said in the previous post).

It is 4 peace deals really.
One for all russian provs, one for Lituanian, one for German, one for Sweden first time.
One for all russian provs, one for Lituanian, one for Spain, one for Turkish second time.
I'll use vassals a bit, but think I can manage without 'em (just little less effective)
The recipe - find someone with big cores (turks, germany, russia, france, etc), reduce it to 1-prov, declare war, make 100% victory to be sure he answer "yes", give him all his cores.

There are so many question marks that an exact example would be most welcome Minusa.

And about MP - nobody in MP gives you a chance to become 88-prov major in 1500 first place. If they do - they are dead. Because at 88 prov you can easily amass 200-300k armies and steamtank over 'em, fighting only attrition.

 

[unmerged(20844)]

wow, a very interesting cheat, but if i did that it would just ruin the point of the game. if i wanted it i'd just edit the save.
and it WAS indeed a bit hard to understand you at first

 

[DSYoungEsq]

I suppose what the point to this should be is that Johan should change the calculation so that, when you up a level, you don't keep any overage in technology, but have to start with a clean slate of 0. That would put a stop to it pronto. :rofl:

 

[Stingray]

I don't see a reason to fix it really, it's impossible to pull in MP, and advanced to pull off in SP..

 

[unmerged(5822)]

While this possibility is bad, it's not really very alarming given the way it is done.

I won't waste that much time doing it in SP, and it's not a very good tactic in MP...

 

[unmerged(9338)]

No, I will at least not use this tactic

 

[unmerged(36024)]

I suppose what the point to this should be is that Johan should change the calculation so that, when you up a level, you don't keep any overage in technology, but have to start with a clean slate of 0. That would put a stop to it pronto. :rofl:

Well. It's a bad idea (for me). Stability is a tech in game terms, and it can be easily boosted 2 lev in 1 month income. And sometime it gives you a small trick to invest in future (make all to stab when you 1 ducat short of +3) to save time for next +1 in stab after some disaster.

What i propose is to change the way techcosts calculated. The result will be the same, except situations when you change [religion|country size]

It's a bit strange to make you 10 years back in all research due to addition of 5 prov to your 1-prov minor. I vote for stable techcosts and modifiers applied to investment, not final cost.

Well - how much times all of us wait some years not making peace deals waiting for some tech to go up a level...

 

[Tonioz]

original recipe was imagined by Ulyss, the member of Russian EU2 forum at http://www.snowball.ru/forums . His calculations showed France can reach 10/10 in 1480. Minusa was single to spent the time of real experience how such system works.

In fact there are several people at russian eu2 community, who invented a really awesome tricks while developing tactic in mp games or just in sp (mostly in 1.05 times).

For example there is a bug/trick, that let you to offer negative money, and if you won over AI to accept normal deal, he will accept your offer with -2500 ducats (you are limitted to 100% scale of demands only). I wrote about that more than a year ago, but that was not fixed.

 

[Chaingun]

While this possibility is bad, it's not really very alarming given the way it is done.

I won't waste that much time doing it in SP, and it's not a very good tactic in MP...

Indeed. In SP it is so that you can choose whether to use such an exploit or not. I certainly do not regard this as a bug; just a side-effect of the current system. In MP you cannot choose yourself how others will behave (though that's why games have lots of rules). Still, there is no need to worry about this in MP as neighbouring players would exploit this immediately (especially once it becomes clear someone is exploiting).

Then again, if Johan has some free time, he could limit tech level advances so that extra progress is lost upon acquiring a new level.

 

[Stingray]

For example there is a bug/trick, that let you to offer negative money, and if you won over AI to accept normal deal, he will accept your offer with -2500 ducats (you are limitted to 100% scale of demands only). I wrote about that more than a year ago, but that was not fixed.

I use that one all the time...

 

[unmerged(36024)]

Then again, if Johan has some free time, he could limit tech level advances so that extra progress is lost upon acquiring a new level.

I hope he don't.
I already wrote about stability issue.

IMHO this is a bad behavior of game, exploitable in some way. But it illogically hurts gameplay if you not using a tricks.
To say it again - I cannot see any reason why almost researched techs become 5-10 years more to research each If you grow you country from 1 to 8 prov.
I absolutely understand why you must spend proportionally more gold for research of "unresearched percents". But why research again percents you know already? Country grow - people forget? Or massive relocation of researchers with all data lost in process?

Everybody loves examples - ok.
Just one ruined game.
I was playing Meclenburg and in war against Poland-Lithuania conquer all of Poland except one provice (I was a 1-prov, DOWed due to my insult on Poland). I almost research Trade lev 3 (still left 100 ducats to aquire). Ta-da... In last poland province is a rebellion with capturing the fortress by rebels... I now 9-prov, +16 BB and maybe 30 years later I finish my trade lev 3.
I must confess - I was planning to get these provnces anyway, but AFTER lev.3 in trade.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

For example there is a bug/trick, that let you to offer negative money, and if you won over AI to accept normal deal, he will accept your offer with -2500 ducats (you are limitted to 100% scale of demands only). I wrote about that more than a year ago, but that was not fixed.

Tonioz,

I don't understand this. What is the trick? Do you mean to say that if you lost the war you could offer him a negative amount of money and that if he agreed to this that sum would be deducted from his treasure and given to you?

 

[Toom]

Tonioz,

I don't understand this. What is the trick? Do you mean to say that if you lost the war you could offer him a negative amount of money and that if he agreed to this that sum would be deducted from his treasure and given to you?

No, the trick is that by offering a negative amount of money you lower the peace offer % so you can demand more provinces from the other country(its specially useful when all the provinces you want add to more than 100%).

F.E: you have 11% WS but you want a province that will cost you 20%, then you ask for that province and, say -500 ducats(so your peace offer is reduced by 19%, from 20% to 1%) and then they will accept.