Rejecting the German-Soviet Tank Research Treaty

[eastcoastceojam]

The conventional wisdom is for the USSR player to accept the German-Soviet tank research treaty in July 1937. If the USSR accepts, both the Germans and the USSR get significant boosts to Medium Tank research.

If the USSR rejects, neither nation gets the research boosts, and the USSR takes a hit to all armor research for 365 days. If I was planning to focusing on Heavy Tanks anyway, it could be sneaky to reject the Treaty, right?

I'm not sure if German AI will produce Heavy Tanks as a replacement for Mediums, like I plan to do. If they don't, then means more Light Tanks in the field when Barbarossa starts, and less threatening to the rest of the world too. The 1 year nerf to Soviet tank research will hurt, but since the next Heavy Tank tech isn't til 1941, I was going to wait a while on research anyway. The USSR will have fewer tanks in June 1941, but those heavier tanks will be more difficult to pierce, and have more hard attack and piercing compared to a German armor division.



All that being said, I'm a little nervous about the modifier from rejecting the tank research treaty:

• Refused Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact ( –50 Opinion / 36 months)

This seems to be the same modifier set if the USSR refuses the M-R pact in 1939. If the USSR rejects the 1937 treaty, does this mean that they won't be invited to partition Poland at the start of WWII?





German-Soviet Treaty
Despite harsh previous rhetoric against both the people and the ideological leadership of the [Root.GetName], [From.GetLeader] and Germany has now reached out to us, requesting a mutually beneficial research treaty. While exchanging knowledge would help our efforts to develop new tank designs along with promises of other research benefits in the future, there is little doubt considering previous statements that the Germans are doing this for their own sake. Should we go forward with the agreement despite the risk of aiding [From.GetLeader]'s ambitions?

The capitalists are a worse threat to us both. Gain –1 Medium Tank models ahead of time research penalty Gain +50% Armor technology research bonus (1x uses) Germany gains opinion modifiers towards Our Nation: Soviet-German Treaty ( +25 Opinion) Soviet-German Treaty (Trade) ( +25Opinion) Enables trade between nations Germany gets the country event "Soviets Accept German-Soviet Treaty" in 1 days We won't give fascists the weapons to crush the proletariat! Lose –10 Political power Gain the idea Scientists Defect for 365 days: –75% Armor research bonus Gain opinion modifier towards Germany: Refused Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact ( –50 Opinion / 36 months) Germany gets the country event "Soviets Reject German-Soviet Treaty" in 1 days

 

[Novis Blackburn]

In theory, the treaty is meant to boost both Germany and the USSR. Not accepting it just keeps you both from advancing as far in armor tech so early.

What this means is both nations will still be on par with each other but at a lesser tech level. However, that also means the Allies' armor tech should be around the same as Germany's in 1939 (or at least closer than if Germany had early access to Panzer IIIs), severely slowing the Germans down when they try their whole "Blitzkrieg" thing.

Additionaly, the lack of a research bonus means that if Germany wanted advanced armor tech despite your rejection of the treaty, they have to tie up a research slot for a significant amount of time—time that would've been used for advancements elsewhere had they acquired the armor research bonus.

I cannot say for sure whether or not this affects the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. I do not believe it does in-game, though it might have in reality.

 

[jpd]

keep in mind, though, that germany has more research slots than you do, as the USSR. So a slower path of tank tech research hurts you more than it hurts germany

 

[eastcoastceojam]

keep in mind, though, that germany has more research slots than you do, as the USSR. So a slower path of tank tech research hurts you more than it hurts germany

Very true. But if the German AI is determined to research Medium Tank I/II anyway, this should clog up one of those slots for an extra 2.5 years, right? Novis Blackburn made that point below:

However, that also means the Allies' armor tech should be around the same as Germany's in 1939 (or at least closer than if Germany had early access to Panzer IIIs), severely slowing the Germans down when they try their whole "Blitzkrieg" thing.

Additionally, the lack of a research bonus means that if Germany wanted advanced armor tech despite your rejection of the treaty, they have to tie up a research slot for a significant amount of time—time that would've been used for advancements elsewhere had they acquired the armor research bonus.

I was planning on doing an early war against Turkey and Romania to get rid of the Purge debuffs in 1937. This gives the added benefit of letting me corner the market on Chromium, which I will need to build all those Heavy Tanks.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[STABBY5]

Keep in mind that while you both have tank research bonuses other than this one, Germany can do theirs in the next focus, and you have to wait till the purge is off, then do like 4 after that. You're hurting yourself more than the germans.

 

[Novis Blackburn]

Let's lay out the facts, here (this all assumes historical gameplay):

Pro-German Arguments:
- Any strategy employed against the AI will work ten times better than against a human brain.
- Germany possesses a greater research capability than the USSR due to more available slots.
- Germany has more abundant and easily accessible armor research bonuses besides the tank treaty.
- Germany already starts ahead of the world in armor technology because they can begin research on Panzer IIIs from day one.

Pro-Soviet Arguments:
- Germany invests resources into its military police (managing resistance).
- Germany invests resources into its coastline garrisons.
- Germany invests resources into the Battle of the Atlantic.
- Germany invests resources into protecting its territory from Allied air.
- Germany invests resources into the Battle of Britain.
- Germany invests resources into Africa.
- Germany invests resources into the Balkans.
- Germany invests resources into covering for its allies.
- Germany invests resources into intelligence (iffy).
- Germany invests resources into its immense invasion force of the USSR.
- The USSR invests 95-99% of its resources repelling the European Axis.

There's a common theme here: while, indeed, Germany undoubtedly (in-game) is more than capable of fighting the USSR itself, there is so much more that a historical German campaign needs to focus on that it cannot feasibly concentrate everything into a single front and do well elsewhere. This sharply contrasts with USSR gameplay that focuses the entire country's fighting capability on one front.

For a successful German campaign on all (if not most) fronts, it must possess adequacy everywhere. Managing all of these fronts and needs is certainly doable. But, in order to achieve this, Germany cannot tie up so much resources to keeping ahead in armor technology in order to make up for lost time.