Reinforcements are ridiculous

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XYN

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Why armies keep reinforcing when there are no way they could get any recruits? See here - I had all Haixi provinces occupied, their stack kept being beaten but then during really long retreat they replenish good part of their army. It doesn't make sense. Why manpower keeps falling from the skies while they are in the middle of the hostile territory, their provinces are occuppied and their ally is Japan with no access to them?

7D849DA475A22F9BBBEE80F7056F331FC27DD890


It would be nice to finally have some sort of simple supply chain for this and for wars overseas.
 
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cihan

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You should check if they are using Manchu Banners, which is basically infinite manpower. If the game is iron-man hover your mouse over the battle screen and hold it on their units, it should tell you it they are using banners or not. In my opinion, infinite manpower mechanic is really broken and in multi games as well as in single games creates interesting outcomes. One example would be that in a multi-player host, a player on Russia who is an experienced player fought against Qing which the war lasted for 30 years and Russia was bleeding manpower while Qing was losing nothing. +10 Discipline is more than enough for Manchu Banners, Paradox Developers could you please fix infinite manpower mayhem. It is really unfair for some nation to have endless manpower alongside with +10 discipline.
 

Canute VII

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You mean a kind of supply system that actually does what a supply system is meant to accomplish: restrict army reach and make armies suffer if out of supply?

*you are a dreamer* :(
 

gia257

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what im told is that there werent supply lines back then, soldiers looted and foraged, may have even settled and farmed, th ebanners attract whoever is on their path to join them, you may control of the land but you dont have the people loyalty

having said that theres a few P2W dlcs lately, and banners are prob no different, at least im trying russia and ottomans are a joke, have double their army, dont need mercs because 1.5k regen on 1530, and crush them 1 to 1 on top of it
 

StefanFan

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what im told is that there werent supply lines back then, soldiers looted and foraged, may have even settled and farmed, th ebanners attract whoever is on their path to join them, you may control of the land but you dont have the people loyalty

having said that theres a few P2W dlcs lately, and banners are prob no different, at least im trying russia and ottomans are a joke, have double their army, dont need mercs because 1.5k regen on 1530, and crush them 1 to 1 on top of it
There were supply lines even 2000 years ago, the Romans used them to supply their armies while fighting in foreign lands, and the lines were pretty neatly set up, not some kind of disorganized mess. There is an illusion that supply lines did not exist because of one simple matter. Most of the wars took place close to home provinces, so basic supplies and foraging/looting were more than enough in most situations.

EDIT: The most used kind of supply line were the rivers/water access by the way, because it allowed fast/easy access for large quantities of supplies, including troop supplies.
 
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XYN

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You mean a kind of supply system that actually does what a supply system is meant to accomplish: restrict army reach and make armies suffer if out of supply?

*you are a dreamer* :(

Yeah, I think the rework of the ancient combat & supply mechanic is old due. It is just way too cringy when your 50k soldiers somehow each month replenish on a tiny island in the middle of the ocean or faraway on land.

Shattered retread made this impression even worse - it looks okay in a war between 2 Italian states, but not when an army shattery retreats across frozen vasts, while replenishing manpower.

Not even talking about supply itself (let's assume that your army lives on plundering, whatever), but at least about manpower. And properly implemented, this would allow for more interesting colonial warfare as well.
 

atestarossa

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Looking forward to the day EU receives a better way of dealing with recruiting and reinforcing.
Colonial ventures especially would be more challenging and interesting if the casualties from yellow fever and malaria weren't just magically replenished.
 

wingren013

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what im told is that there werent supply lines back then, soldiers looted and foraged, may have even settled and farmed, th ebanners attract whoever is on their path to join them, you may control of the land but you dont have the people loyalty

having said that theres a few P2W dlcs lately, and banners are prob no different, at least im trying russia and ottomans are a joke, have double their army, dont need mercs because 1.5k regen on 1530, and crush them 1 to 1 on top of it

This is partly true. Supply Lines i.e. actual logisitical operations only appeared near the end of EU4's era. However most armies did not subsist soley on forage. They carried a substantial amount of supplies with them in baggage trains and were reliant on these. Larger politys usually maintained supply depots throughout their territory to serve as a resupply point for armies operating in the area. Armies were also commonly supplied by sea which was part of why naval dominance was considered so important, a rather famous example of this would be Xerxes invasion of Hellas being stopped by the defeat at Salamis. This system lasted pretty much from the classical era to the 18th century.
 
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XYN

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Gameplay comes before realism, I'm afraid.

Implement what you're wanting to and the AI will be even more useless than it already is.

The simplest would be, I suppose, is to made the replenish time variable - e.g. minimum 1 month, further increases depending on the distance from (capital? States? Not sure). So to get reinforcements in the New World you would have to wait 1 month + distance, depending on your diplo tech level, and have at least 1 accessible port on each side.

I mean, they have AI accounting for it in HOI. And i dont care about realism, it isn't about realism but more about common sense gameplay. A lot of things are unrealistic, but stacks pingponged across continents regenerating no matter what is just silly.

And what breaks AI even more is ability to take tiny stacks and walk around it indefinitely. Like Ming, you can totally confuse it by spamming 1-2k stacks and walking them. Or take a bigger one and siege a castle deep inside.
 
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Trytols

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10 units with 990 men may reinforce 100 people in ONE month.

Consolidate regiments...

1 unit with 900 men need TWO or THREE months to fully reinforce.

I know reinforcements are based on on % of missing men... But is not "logic" that I can reinforce 100 men in one month ONLY if i dont consolidate regiments, else it will take longer.

Imho reinforcements should be a FLAT number based on where are the troops to reinforce, adding all modifiers required.
They should not change if I reorganize my army.

I need to reinforce 100 men: if I need 10 groups of 10 They arrive in one month. If I need 1 group of 100... no, they wont.
 

master_kong

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Maybe making return province a supply center would be nice. Reinforcement speed would be depend on how far away from the return province you are. Just an idea.

Edit: Or it can effects attrition as well the same way.
 
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Castellanus

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You need to learn more military history. Until well after the Napoleonic wars, armies were resupplied by the towns abs farms they were passing by, for the desperation of the farmers. And for many armies, until the same date, men were replenished by means of forceful enlistment in those towns. This is why, no matter if you have direct access to your fatherland, it makes perfect sense that your armies are resupplied.
 
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You need to learn more military history. Until well after the Napoleonic wars, armies were resupplied by the towns abs farms they were passing by, for the desperation of the farmers. And for many armies, until the same date, men were replenished by means of forceful enlistment in those towns. This is why, no matter if you have direct access to your fatherland, it makes perfect sense that your armies are resupplied.

That would be nice and dandy, except that the manpower gets drained from your manpower pool which comes from your provinces. It doesn't matter where you are, in the middle of Siberia in a 3-development province or in a 30 development province, the armies would be replenished exactly for the amount your manpower allows and if you have 0 of it, you will not get anything.
 

pttaylor

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Supply, i.e. attrition, is based mostly on looting rather than supply trains - fine. But the discussion here is mostly about *reinforcements*, which are necessarily coming from controlled territory.
 

durbal

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You need to learn more military history. Until well after the Napoleonic wars, armies were resupplied by the towns abs farms they were passing by, for the desperation of the farmers. And for many armies, until the same date, men were replenished by means of forceful enlistment in those towns. This is why, no matter if you have direct access to your fatherland, it makes perfect sense that your armies are resupplied.

I wonder where those farmers get cannonballs or even enough arrows to last a battle from. This is another thing repeated on this forum frequently that just isn't true.
 

wingren013

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I wonder where those farmers get cannonballs or even enough arrows to last a battle from. This is another thing repeated on this forum frequently that just isn't true.
Obviously they grow them in their fields ;)
 

Jomini

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There were supply lines even 2000 years ago, the Romans used them to supply their armies while fighting in foreign lands, and the lines were pretty neatly set up, not some kind of disorganized mess. There is an illusion that supply lines did not exist because of one simple matter. Most of the wars took place close to home provinces, so basic supplies and foraging/looting were more than enough in most situations.

EDIT: The most used kind of supply line were the rivers/water access by the way, because it allowed fast/easy access for large quantities of supplies, including troop supplies.
Nonsense.

Cato was quite frank that "War should feed itself". And they did. The typical Roman approach was to take a large quantity of specie or trade goods and buy goods from the locals. Failing that they sent out deni to forage. We have copious examples of documents detailing Roman efforts to acquire food, firewood, clothing, and even some weaponry in theater, we have basically nothing for supply lines as commonly understood (i.e. continuous shipping of material from the rear to the front).

When the Romans, or anyone else, supplied troops from the rear it was not because it was fast - it was because it was the only option that was possible. Overland supply requires draft animals (the Romans were partial to donkeys). For a large enough army (and that is basically all of them in the EUIV era), the draft animals will consume more fodder than there is frontage for the army. For any army, grazing your draft animals will make your armies ponderously slow. This results in a rocketry equation for fodder hauling. You need draft animals to haul fodder, which requires more draft animals hauling more fodder. Trivially small distance proved impossible in the real world (e.g. Gustavus Adolphus was stymied by being unable to establish a supply line 100 km long; Louis XIV was not able to supply sieges less than 200 km from French bastions).

Even ships tended to be terrible at supplying armies. The British tried to supply their forces in the American Revolution with food from home. It failed. Miserably. They then promptly gave up and reverted back to their SOP of buying/foraging for supplies.

"Supplies" in this era typically meant two things: money and orders. Maintaining communications so as to avoid wastes like the Battle of New Orleans was extremely important, with our instant communications this is utterly missing from the game. Money was a major thing and with enough gold flowing any material hardship could be overcome. Powder was the biggest good actually shipped from the rear, but this was only consumed by actual battles, often could be bought (e.g. the Dutch supplied the majority of Spanish gunpowder in the 80 Years War), and even that was terribly difficult to transport.

Frankly what happened to you is pretty historical. Armies routinely recruited from the territories across which they fought/retreated. Armies were always polyglot and massive amounts of the manpower in them were from local recruits. Cortez, for instance, saw his effective manpower increase steadily during his campaign as he recruited local fighters. Pizarro managed the same feat. As did a number of Ottoman armies, the Mughals, Marlborough, Napoleon (fun fact, by the end of Russian campaign the majority of Grande Armee was German/Polish due to this tendency), Gustavus Adolphus, and basically every other capable general of the era. We have historical records of forces increasing the effective manpower thousands of miles from home, at no expense,

The real ahistorical kludge of EUIV has been its use of internal limits to check expansion. This basically never happened in the EUIV era. The Mughals drastically increased their effective manpower throughout the earliest campaigns. They faltered when the came up against states that could resist them. Monarch points, "cores", fixed length nationalism, colony/coring range (I mean seriously, the Philippines were colonized from Western Mexico), and everything else is far less historical that reinforcements on retreat.