Reimagining ascension perks

[The Boz]

I am of the belief that ascension perks are supposed to be something quite big and empire-defining, and not just a +% bonus here or there. They are permanent fixtures that define a society.
I am also of the belief that megastructures could use some help or redefinition, making them less of a package deal.
Finally, I think that the full potential of the ascension and technology card system has not been realized.
So with those three in mind, let's start by defining a few ground rules about my goals here:
1. Ascension perks are big, impactful, and remain relevant throughout the game.
2. Late-game bonuses
3. The ascension perks should have more of an impact on your tech tree than they currently do.
4. Core game mechanics should not be limited to ascension perks. However, as you can see below, I do not consider jump drives, gateways, titans, or terraforming "core game mechanics".

Examples of my ideal version of ascension perks:

Arcology Project - Requires any 1 ascension perk. Enables Arcology buildings, which have housing and jobs for amenities, trade, consumer goods, food. Enables research for improving said buildings. Enables Ecumenopolis research at T5.
Not at all specialized buildings available early, meant to represent self-sustained cities. Ends with a (hopefully nerfed) Ecumenopolis at T5.

Awesome Firepower - Requires any degree of Militarist. Instantly increases all weapon damage by 5%. Increases research speed for all weapon technologies by 10%. Enables all end-game weapon technologies. Enables Colossus research at T5.
One of three ways of winning at space: firepower. The end-game weapon techs include final upgrade guns (like Gamma Laser, Plasma Cannon, Tachyon Lance, Neutron Launcher, etc.). And then you get the Colossus research option with no Titans prerequisite.

Galactic Force Projection - No requirements. Instantly grants +10% hull to all ships. Enables all Improved/Advanced Ship Hulls technologies. Enables Titans research.
The other way to have a powerful fleet is to have individually strong vessels, capped with a game-changer titan.

Gate Network Builders - Requires Hyperlane Breach Points. Enables Hyperlane Registrar (reworked to module, covering area much like how trade hubs work). Makes Gateway Activation research more likely to appear, and grants 25% progress on it. Enables Gateway Construction research.
Early game speed bonuses throughout the empire are not to be ignored. Very strong late game "megastructure".

Grand Fleet - No requirements. Instantly grants +20 Fleet capacity, +40 Naval capacity. Enables all the Standardized Ship Patterns technologies. Improves job and Anchorage naval capacity increases by +1. Enables tier 5 Strategic Coordination Center research.
Weaker out of the gate, but scales better through the mid game, and ends with a powerful megastructure.

Hyperspace Navigators - Requires Speculative Hyperlane Breaching. Halves emergency FTL and experimental drive jump times. Eventually enables jump drives, allows jump drive upgrades.
Jump drives are a significant game-changer that obviates several game strategic elements quite hard. They should come at a price, and not be freely available to all empires.

One Vision - No requirements. Grants +10% monthly Unity, +25% governing ethics attraction. Enables research for increased governing ethics attraction and crime reduction. Enables the Mega Art Installation research at T5.
Although the instant bonuses are not as strong as now, the technologies do add up, freeing up a lot of resources and building slots, and there is a neat megastructure at the end.

Starlords - No requirements. Instantly boosts all mining and research stations built around stars and black holes by +1. Enables research to boost that by another +1. Enables research to suffer lesser penalties due to star types (neutron star slow, pulsar shield nullification). Enables Dyson Sphere and Matter Decompressor research at T5.
Neat early game bonus, especially for wide empires. Culminates in two strong basic economy megastructures.

Technological Ascendancy - No requirements. Instantly boosts research by 5%. Researcher jobs generate 1 Amenity. Enables T5 Science Nexus research.
A more natural progression that encourages building of more research labs, culminating in a megastructure.

Shared Destiny - Requires any agreement with any other empire, and not Xenophobe. Increases all trust cap by +50 and immigration pull by 20%. Decreases all agreement costs by 25%. Enables Interstellar Assembly research at T5.
Slightly changed from its original role, this is now fully dedicated towards federation building and peaceful cooperation.

Voidborne - Requires Starhold. Enables Habitation Ring starbase building, which generates modest emigration pop growth. Enables Habitat research at T3, and upgrades for it at T4. Enables Ringworld research at T5.
Available slightly sooner for a slightly tamer effect, and progresses naturally into ringworlds.

World Shaper - Requires any 1 ascension perk. Reduces blocker cost by 33%. Enables all terraforming techs at various tiers, including Gaia at T5.
Available instantly for the blocker cost reduction, which is important so it doesn't feel weak. Ends with Gaia worlds.

 

[The Boz]

An idea to combat the inherent imbalance between some ascension perks, as well as keep the theme of some perks being a prerequisite for others, would be to divide them into Minor and Major perks. The key difference would be the scaling: minor perks would mostly have flat, immediate bonuses or upgrades, and not dramatic "we can turn planets into rings now" type stuff.
The first, third, fifth and seventh perks you unlock would always be Minor perks. Second, fourth, sixth and eighth would be Major perks. The ones listed above would, in this, all be considered Major perks. Minor perks would be, for example:

Enigmatic Engineering - Increases all special project research speed by 25%. Empire's technology can no longer be reverse-engineered by other empires.

Inspired Leadership - Increases Leader pool by +1, level cap by +1, experience gain by +10%, lifespan by +5.

Executive Vigor - Increases Edict duration by 25%. Reduces Edict cost by 25%.

 

[Elimdur]

Starlords - No requirements. Instantly boosts all mining and research stations built around stars and black holes by +1. Enables research to boost that by another +1. Enables research to suffer lesser penalties due to star types (neutron star slow, pulsar shield nullification). Enables Dyson Sphere and Matter Decompressor research at T5.
Neat early game bonus, especially for wide empires. Culminates in two strong basic economy megastructures.

I do really like your ideas. They would make all those perks interesting. The only little thing I would criticize is the Starlords perk you suggested. The megastructures are most interesting for tall empires, while the bonus for mining stations seems good for wide ones. Both empire types would have an incentive to take it, one early on, the other one later. These ascension perks should specialize empire to make them more different from oneanother so atleast in my opinion you should have different perks for wide and tall gameplay specializing more.

 

[Desolator_X]

The big issue is with what you define as "minor" perks. Those are in need of dramatic upgrades in power. all other perks are honestly fine, though some could be balanced better (looking at you, arcology project). Also, what do you mean with T1-T5? it's not really explained in your post.

 

[Elimdur]

The big issue is with what you define as "minor" perks. Those are in need of dramatic upgrades in power. all other perks are honestly fine, though some could be balanced better (looking at you, arcology project). Also, what do you mean with T1-T5? it's not really explained in your post.

I think he refers to Tech tiers which are defined in the technology game files.

 

[Coconut_Cookie]

I like the idea of dividing the megastructures over other perks. I'd rather see them more powerfull but also as an end to a certain playstyle of a certain game mechanic, preferably offering a new way of playing instead of a bonus. On top of that it is wierd that all megastructures are behind the same tech, as if the construction of a dyson sphere requires the same technology as creating a sentry array.

 

[Theter]

The problem you legit focused on this thread is that there shouldnt be 1 ascension perk for all megastructures around which every player has to converge, ultimately making ascension boring and the same for everyone.

I am of course excluding pop ascension (mech, bio, psy) as they are more diverse and do not require as much commitement as galactic wonders. They are what good ascension should be looking like, and this is what I recognize in your suggestion, OP. Specialisation without heavy commitement and without overpower.

 

[RoverStorm]

Arcology Project: Yeah, so apparently Paradox missed the memo that an Arcology Project is a fully self sustaining building, which means it'd be capable of maintaining it's people's current living standards even if the rest of the empire got nuked (well the Galactic Net channels might disappear). So no, anything with Arcology in it's name would not need thousands of food imported from offworld to keep it's peeps alive. I like how your suggestion reflects this, and also implies that it's concepts lead into future research of compact living, rather than supposedly being it outright.

 

[The Boz]

I do really like your ideas. They would make all those perks interesting. The only little thing I would criticize is the Starlords perk you suggested. The megastructures are most interesting for tall empires, while the bonus for mining stations seems good for wide ones. Both empire types would have an incentive to take it, one early on, the other one later. These ascension perks should specialize empire to make them more different from oneanother so atleast in my opinion you should have different perks for wide and tall gameplay specializing more.

I get what you're saying, but I...
a) kinda like how both empires can get something out of it
ii) think that tall playstyle is currently not optimal at all, and I don't know how to fix it without *heavy* admin cap tweaking
3) have only a few ideas that could buff tall styles over wides, and those are limited in applicability

The big issue is with what you define as "minor" perks. Those are in need of dramatic upgrades in power.

In comparison to what? All minor perks are only in competition with other minor perks; you can never choose a minor over a major or a major over a minor.

Also, what do you mean with T1-T5? it's not really explained in your post.

Technology tiers, as Elimdur said.

 

[beckermt]

I like the idea of dividing the megastructures over other perks. I'd rather see them more powerfull but also as an end to a certain playstyle of a certain game mechanic, preferably offering a new way of playing instead of a bonus. On top of that it is wierd that all megastructures are behind the same tech, as if the construction of a dyson sphere requires the same technology as creating a sentry array.

All the megastructures are behind one Perk because any particular empire type will have the most from just a couple of them. If every empire that takes Technological Ascendancy gets access to the Science Nexus, then all those empires will build it. Whereas, as it currently stands, you can build a tech empire that's war focused or a tech empire that's pure tech focused by choosing different Perks.

Although it feels weird that they're all under one Perk, it is definitely the correct design decision. It makes Megastructures special, by virtue of having them at all, not by virtue of which one you're allowed to build.


THAT SAID, I like @OP's idea of incorporating more tech bonuses and/or highly advanced techs into the Ascension Perks.

 

[Coconut_Cookie]

All the megastructures are behind one Perk because any particular empire type will have the most from just a couple of them. If every empire that takes Technological Ascendancy gets access to the Science Nexus, then all those empires will build it. Whereas, as it currently stands, you can build a tech empire that's war focused or a tech empire that's pure tech focused by choosing different Perks.

Although it feels weird that they're all under one Perk, it is definitely the correct design decision. It makes Megastructures special, by virtue of having them at all, not by virtue of which one you're allowed to build.


THAT SAID, I like @OP's idea of incorporating more tech bonuses and/or highly advanced techs into the Ascension Perks.

The problem is that most of the meagastructures aren't even worth it. By the time you can build them you have already won the game or the difference of having them is negligible. On top of that as I said earlier, thematically it doesn't make any sense to have them be unlocked by one perk. Also it makes fallen empire's lose part of what made them special, the ring world, 'magic' like tech, titans. They are supposed to be these ancient empires that turned inward and isolated themselves for some reason, since utopia you can build the same structures after little more than a century if you specialize your empire for it. I would like to see some other ways to differentiate you society and preferably something that is multually exclusive like the sliders in EU3 or darkest hour. It doesn't need to be sliders but work on the same priciple. You need still have the possibility to change but it will be slow and if you want to specialize you have to choose for example either go full citadels or go full fleet, go full fighters or go full battleship doctrine.

As it is right now I almost always pick the same choices because some perks are just better. It is an okay mechanic but it could be better.

 

[Roddo]

Good idea. As the game stands right now, my empires end up always looking the same. My inner geek is in desperate need to RP my playthroughs, but when you have the option of just TAKING IT ALL, RESEARCHING IT ALL, BUILDING IT ALL.... well.. it ends up being just another mindless "just win doing everything" playthough.

 

[beckermt]

The problem is that most of the meagastructures aren't even worth it. By the time you can build them you have already won the game or the difference of having them is negligible.

since utopia you can build the same structures after little more than a century if you specialize your empire for it.

While I agree with your overall point that the Ascendancy Perks need tuning, I think these two statement you made show that Megastructures are actually in a good place. If you build an empire to actually aim for megastructures, you can get them in the mid-game. If you don't, then by the time you even get them they're negligible.

That's exactly how they should work. Any type of (tall) empire can be tuned to aim for Megastructures and there are Megastructures to support each playstyle.

 

[The Boz]

I'm having a problem following your logic. How are megastructures more special if you get *all* of them with one perk?
The descriptive recognition of empires in the form of "This is an X empire in 2395, so it will probably have built a Y megastructure" is now only available in one form:
"This is an advanced empire in 2395, so it will probably have built all megastructures"
There is nothing preventing them from doing so, just like there is nothing preventing all the other empires from doing so, making them more similar to each other, blending fluff, fantasy, and playstyle into a lategame sameness of grey.
Instead, if they were split, you could see
"This is a warlike empire in 2395, so it will probably have built a strategic coordination center"
"This is a technological empire in 2395, so it will probably have built a science nexus"
"This is a sprawling empire in 2395, so it will probably have built a gateway or nine"
Etc. Instead of one descriptor, advanced, you get dozens, with meaningful differences.

 

[beckermt]

I'm having a problem following your logic. How are megastructures more special if you get *all* of them with one perk?

Because no empire has the time or resources to build them all, so they choose the ones most pertinent to their build. Alternately, you can build a science empire that has NO megastructures. It's simply convenient to put all the MSs in one perk, so that instead of every empire having the MS for THEIR build, only empires that build FOR MSs will get ANY MSs.

"This is a warlike empire in 2395, so it will probably have built a strategic coordination center"
"This is a technological empire in 2395, so it will probably have built a science nexus"
"This is a sprawling empire in 2395, so it will probably have built a gateway or nine"

And now every empire has MSs. Every warlike empire will have the SCC. Every tech empire will have the Nexus, etc.

Does it make sense now?

 

[The Boz]

Because no empire has the time or resources to build them all, so they choose the ones most pertinent to their build.

...or the situation. Because they can. No need for prior planning or forethought, just pick the one trait that gives you everything.

And now every empire has MSs. Every warlike empire will have the SCC. Every tech empire will have the Nexus, etc.

It will have *access* to it. And it'd be a good idea to build it.
I don't understand how the same person claiming that "just by having access to it doesn't mean you'll build it" is also claiming that "having access to it means that all empires will build it"...

Does it make sense now?

Well, more sense than "we can build the everything, sure".
The only thing current megastructures have in common is that they're about building something very large. Their use and expected expertise is radically different, because the engineering challenges of building a matter decompressor in the hilariously high gravity well of a black hole is very much different from building a very large station with offices for naval logistics attendants, which is also dramatically different from building a structure that detects all hyperspace travel in real time at any distance.
As is right now, you could build a sentry array with just basic sensors, an interstellar assembly as a xenophobic purifier, or a ringworld with no idea how to construct habitats. It is silly.

 

[mammonmachine]

Overall I think these are interesting suggestions.

I think placing jump drives behind a space navigation perk is a good idea. I'm a little unsure about gateways - I've always found them incredibly powerful, and worry that this will become an 'essential' perk. It could work if the power of gateways was toned down a little - e.g. if you gave them warm-up time, they would become less useful for tall empires.

One difficulty with distributing megastructures between perks is that those perks need to be viable without the megastructure (for people who don't own utopia and/or megacorp) without being overpowered. Although of course the perk stats can be slightly different in the base game.

 

[The Boz]

I'm a little unsure about gateways - I've always found them incredibly powerful, and worry that this will become an 'essential' perk. It could work if the power of gateways was toned down a little - e.g. if you gave them warm-up time, they would become less useful for tall empires.

Their power depends on existing gateways, wormholes, empire size, and overall galactic topography. Very long gateway warm-up is a very neat, fluffy idea. I like.

One difficulty with distributing megastructures between perks is that those perks need to be viable without the megastructure (for people who don't own utopia and/or megacorp) without being overpowered. Although of course the perk stats can be slightly different in the base game.

Making megastructures base is a step. The devs have made a lot of DLC stuff base before.

 

[mammonmachine]

Making megastructures base is a step. The devs have made a lot of DLC stuff base before.

I think that would go down very badly! They were the headline feature of Utopia after all. This isn't like giving people unity ambitions, and I would argue they are a far more substantial piece of content than the basic ascension perks.

Another route other than different perk versions for DLC/non-DLC would be to maintain a galactic wonders perk that, in combination with other perks, can allow you to build their megastructures. It might need to give you other benefits as well as it would be substantially weaker than the present perk. It would of course require one of the megastructure-making perks as a prereq, to prevent someone taking it when they can do nothing with it. The issue I see here is that having megastructure-building tied to perk combos might be confusing for the player.

 

[Coconut_Cookie]

While I agree with your overall point that the Ascendancy Perks need tuning, I think these two statement you made show that Megastructures are actually in a good place. If you build an empire to actually aim for megastructures, you can get them in the mid-game. If you don't, then by the time you even get them they're negligible.

That's exactly how they should work. Any type of (tall) empire can be tuned to aim for Megastructures and there are Megastructures to support each playstyle.

This doesn't help 'tall' empires because this perk can be used by 'wide' empires as well. As with almost everything is this game, you can have alsmost everything by the end, your empire will be good at everything. No matter of balancing in the perks will solve this because there are only a few optimal ways to play the game if you want to succeed. This results in some perks being better choices than others. In order to make megastructures worthwhile they need to be far more impactfull. Maybe there should be more stages of development to them, they could be a reason to go to war against a neighbour. The game lacks mutual exclusive choices situations when you have to make long term goals that cannot be changed at a moments notice. Like with the sliders I mentioned, you either go one way or the other, or alternatively you don't go for any extreme and remain balanced but master nothing. I don't say they should bring sliders back but games would be a lot more different if there were some long term choices to be made that impact how you play, instead of every game being similar. This would also help to differentiate ai factions a bit more.

My Second point was that thematically it is weird. The technologies applied should be vastly different. And in my opinion the lore of fallen empires suffers for megastructures to be buildable by regular empires. This can be solved by making the requirements to unlock them different, for example if we ever get espionage it might be possible to steal a part of the tech to build them from a fallen empire.

The difference between 'wide' and 'tall' should be solved in a different way because megastructures or perks cannot do that while they can be choosen by almost anyone. Maybe small empires could be more adapt to trade. Or maybe like in EU3 the small empires have an easier time regaining stability and therefore could go for innovative with the sliders giving them faster tech while large empires needed the traditional bonus on the other end of the slider to get the stability bonus. Maybe this could be mirrored in the traditions trees with each tree having an opposing one and each pair has only the choises available to fill one of the two completely. On top of this you should aslo be able to cancel choosen traditions to slowely move to the other side of the spectrum if you wanted to, this could come with a penalty of course. For example the expansion traditions coud have a mirror tree that focusses on the home system. You would have the flexibility to choose strategy that suit your position while you can still change to match a different situation later on.

To summarize, again it is an okay system but empires are all more or less the same, megastructures are in most cases not worth it and the dichotomy of 'tall' and 'wide' cannot be balanced by slightly changing traditions and perks.