azid said:
Why not? I wouldn't call them QUALITY battle ready troops, but we've addressed that elsewhere.
Regular and Irregular Armies
- Thread starter Mad King James
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Why not? I wouldn't call them QUALITY battle ready troops, but we've addressed that elsewhere.
Mad King James said:
Well my idea was that at early tech levels they would only be slightly worse than your full time naval units (keep navies small early until war as was historical unless you were a large naval state like some of the Italian city-states but even then most of there ships were armed merchants), then as technology progressed you would use these ships as transports (about this time they should be armed about the same) and late game you would only call them up in an emergency (you need a quick transport fleet, or just some cannon-fodder so your good ships might make it through the battle). They would have decent morale in the early game but by late game might not be worth it to add to your fleet.
Also you should take a hit to all your naval trade routes (if the trade routes systems are incorporated) thus making it a hard decision to make...a instant fleet and a hit in the cash flow, or leaving the cash and risking the few naval ships you have/going without.
Mad King James said:
well it really doesnt matter to me as your idea would work well im just dropping some thoughts
what fun is an argument without any counterarguments ? 
Mad King James said:
Don't forget that IRL they often turned "rebel scums" when they are disbanded (or when they were not paid), I like the "special rule" given by tamerlan that mercenaries always pilles all provinces.
And also, they could be turn rebels 20% of time when they are disbanded or when they can't pille the province (because it is already pilled)
(i'm not sure that "pille/pillage" is an english word
)
I'm not a big fan of the idea. The line between regular and irregular soldiers at this time was pretty faint.
azid said:well it really doesnt matter to me as your idea would work well im just dropping some thoughts
No no this is good, besides if an idea can't face scrutiny or contradiction it probably isn't very good. I like your pool idea and I think it should be used for drawing regular army out of the manpower pool (bigger army, longer it takes).
Hmmm... on the raising of militias:
Perhaps have a few options on how well-trained you want them to be. The options could be:
--Raise untrained levy. They're pretty weak. A day to a week.
--Light training. A bit stronger, low morale. A couple weeks to a month.
--Moderate training: Better morale. A month or three.
--Well-trained: Good morale, strong. Should take a while and be expensive, though.
Perhaps there could be a "militarism" country slider that makes these quicker (representing more peacetime training, like the English with longbows)? With appropriate penalties and/or benifits for the other end (whatever that would be), of course.
Perhaps have a few options on how well-trained you want them to be. The options could be:
--Raise untrained levy. They're pretty weak. A day to a week.
--Light training. A bit stronger, low morale. A couple weeks to a month.
--Moderate training: Better morale. A month or three.
--Well-trained: Good morale, strong. Should take a while and be expensive, though.
Perhaps there could be a "militarism" country slider that makes these quicker (representing more peacetime training, like the English with longbows)? With appropriate penalties and/or benifits for the other end (whatever that would be), of course.
Mad King James said:
judas maccabeus said:
I think experience should be modeled somehow in the game as a country which fights alot should have a better army. But who would use light and moderate training? i think you are providing the gamer with too many choices most people would eiter go for maximum or lowest i think? because the hard troop would always beat the medium or light ?
azid said:
Not always (luck, leadership, and numbers also factor in), and those extra months might be crucial. Besides, the well-trained troops should also be expensive.
And it's always open for modification if necessary, or I could just let it go if people think it's unworkable. I'm just one fan among many...
How about this suggested by Captaine Frakas:
Originally Posted by Captain Frakas
I suggest 3 kind of army...
1. Feudal Army.
The old feudal army a la Crusader Kings. Each province own one army. The quality of the soldiers and their equipement (and the quantity) depend to the province status itself.
They are free to build and are cheep to maintain. But They can be activated only 40 days per years.
They are less and less used as the game advence in time.
Build cost : free.
Maintenance cost : cheap
Loyalty : From the province revoltrisk.
Quality : From the province settings, but quite poor.
2. Dogs of War
They are used when Feudal army start to disband. They are expensive to build and expansive to maintain. Their quality, their quantity, their equipement are random, and play to their cost.
Special : when a mercenary army is disbanded, there are a chance of 20% that they turn "rebel scum" instead.
Build cost : expensive
Maintenance cost : very expensive
Loyalty : normal.
Quality : Random, but quite good.
3. Compagnies d'Ordonances (permanent army).
The "modern" army. We can choose their equipement. Their quality depend to domestic policies, and their quantities to how much we recruit. They are very expensive to build (as we buy their equipement). Artillery and Navy can only be constructed in.
Build cost : very expensive
Maintenance cost : expensive
Loyalty : high
Quality : from the domestic policies, but quite good.
Originally Posted by Captain Frakas
I suggest 3 kind of army...
1. Feudal Army.
The old feudal army a la Crusader Kings. Each province own one army. The quality of the soldiers and their equipement (and the quantity) depend to the province status itself.
They are free to build and are cheep to maintain. But They can be activated only 40 days per years.
They are less and less used as the game advence in time.
Build cost : free.
Maintenance cost : cheap
Loyalty : From the province revoltrisk.
Quality : From the province settings, but quite poor.
2. Dogs of War
They are used when Feudal army start to disband. They are expensive to build and expansive to maintain. Their quality, their quantity, their equipement are random, and play to their cost.
Special : when a mercenary army is disbanded, there are a chance of 20% that they turn "rebel scum" instead.
Build cost : expensive
Maintenance cost : very expensive
Loyalty : normal.
Quality : Random, but quite good.
3. Compagnies d'Ordonances (permanent army).
The "modern" army. We can choose their equipement. Their quality depend to domestic policies, and their quantities to how much we recruit. They are very expensive to build (as we buy their equipement). Artillery and Navy can only be constructed in.
Build cost : very expensive
Maintenance cost : expensive
Loyalty : high
Quality : from the domestic policies, but quite good.
One thing to mention about armies: standing armies should not show up until the 1600s. They should be excellent but extremely expensive.
Louis XIV the sun king was the first to have a standing army I believe, and even then it was only maybe 20 thousand soliders. Having standing everlasting armies like that in EU2 is competely incorrect for this time period.
Louis XIV the sun king was the first to have a standing army I believe, and even then it was only maybe 20 thousand soliders. Having standing everlasting armies like that in EU2 is competely incorrect for this time period.
A "Garrison" technology would be excellent Level in Garrison tech -> percentage of your manpower pool you can put to garrison. So lets say France has Garrison tech at level 5 -> it can keep 5% of its manpower pool in garrison. Benefits of this Garrison? At peacetime, if you have less troops mobilised than your garrison "permits", you will pay much reduced upkeep (but the troops will still be fully trained etc).
If one then wants to mobilise troops to war, it should take time to get the troops (say 1 month to get irregulars or "militia", 1 month to get mercenaries and 3-6 months to get regular troops).
I think the irregulars should indeed be province based as in CK. Mercenaries should be available in provinces with large enough city *or* a standing army (as mercs surely would draw themselves towards armies in case of job opportunities). Regulars OTOH should only be available from conscription centers (and perhaps the capital of the nation).
Level in Garrison tech -> percentage of your manpower pool you can put to garrison. So lets say France has Garrison tech at level 5 -> it can keep 5% of its manpower pool in garrison. Benefits of this Garrison? At peacetime, if you have less troops mobilised than your garrison "permits", you will pay much reduced upkeep (but the troops will still be fully trained etc).If one then wants to mobilise troops to war, it should take time to get the troops (say 1 month to get irregulars or "militia", 1 month to get mercenaries and 3-6 months to get regular troops).
I think the irregulars should indeed be province based as in CK. Mercenaries should be available in provinces with large enough city *or* a standing army (as mercs surely would draw themselves towards armies in case of job opportunities). Regulars OTOH should only be available from conscription centers (and perhaps the capital of the nation).
Yeah I'd imagine the only thing kind of like a "standing army" in the feudal system would be nobles... which should be modeled. I really like the idea of a CK like system. We should have sliders that allow us to control either by the empire or by each province what sort of mix of troops we get. As your technology increases then you can have a standing army, and a more formal militia, like a reserve... in addition to the totally sort of out of the fields mustered militia.
Ok how about in regards to stats, we have leadership ratings and effectiveness ratings?
LEADERSHIP:
- Discipline: Highly disciplined troops have better morale, and will not loot your provinces or those of your allies.
- Loyalty: Highly loyal troops will fight to the bitter end, while disloyal troops will desert if things are going badly. Loyal mercenaries are harder to bribe as well. When disbanded, disloyal mercs may turn into Angry Mob type rebels (the worst kind) especially if they are undisciplined.
- Quality: The level of training and professionalism posessed by these troops.
this is in addition to good old:
- Movement
- Fire
- Shock
Which are relegated entirely to technology, though the levels of each can affect each other. You could have a fire value of 6, except your quality level is so high it acts as though it's 9. (150%), or the troops could be rabble and it doesn't matter that they have the best guns in the world (3, 50%)
Your irregular provincial armies and regular armies stats are based on your DP settings as offset by the leader that's leading them, whereas mercenary stats depend on which company you hire. For instance the Bashi-Bazouks, who countries in the near east can hire, would have low discipline and loyalty, but reasonable quality, Swiss companies would have excellent discipline and loyalty but only reasonable quality, while the Lanshneckts would have excellent discipline, good loyalty and phenomenal quality. The Bashi Bazouks would be the cheapest option, the swiss in the middle and the Lanshneckts being the Lexus of mercenaries.
LEADERSHIP:
- Discipline: Highly disciplined troops have better morale, and will not loot your provinces or those of your allies.
- Loyalty: Highly loyal troops will fight to the bitter end, while disloyal troops will desert if things are going badly. Loyal mercenaries are harder to bribe as well. When disbanded, disloyal mercs may turn into Angry Mob type rebels (the worst kind) especially if they are undisciplined.
- Quality: The level of training and professionalism posessed by these troops.
this is in addition to good old:
- Movement
- Fire
- Shock
Which are relegated entirely to technology, though the levels of each can affect each other. You could have a fire value of 6, except your quality level is so high it acts as though it's 9. (150%), or the troops could be rabble and it doesn't matter that they have the best guns in the world (3, 50%)
Your irregular provincial armies and regular armies stats are based on your DP settings as offset by the leader that's leading them, whereas mercenary stats depend on which company you hire. For instance the Bashi-Bazouks, who countries in the near east can hire, would have low discipline and loyalty, but reasonable quality, Swiss companies would have excellent discipline and loyalty but only reasonable quality, while the Lanshneckts would have excellent discipline, good loyalty and phenomenal quality. The Bashi Bazouks would be the cheapest option, the swiss in the middle and the Lanshneckts being the Lexus of mercenaries.
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Mad King James said:
Without going too far from EU2 maybe the mercenaries could be given random bonuses to their stats? and then a random name?