Regional Livonian Mod

[Narvait]

Why?
One can not RP the only Latvian and Estonian Kings known to history and reverse their fate against Swordbrothers and Teutones.
To correct minor naming and other issues in Livonia.

Success minimum:
Start Date 1187 is historically adequate with historical pagan leaders who acted XIII century represented as sons of existing rulers and with historical names and division of tribes, temples and cities.

Success maximum:
XIII century start dates are historically adequate with historical pagan and military order leaders, lands and mechanics (i.e. on-going crusade or holy wars against one tribes, and casus belli available against others, to model situation).

Dictatorship (hopefully benevolent) notice:
I reserve the last word is historically disputable cases. This period is open to interpretations.

Amateurship notice:
This is my very first mod I am trying

 

[Narvait]

Start Dates to focus:
=Year 1187=
Current CK2 State description (shall be added):
- all d_livonia is ruled by Kaupo Turaida
- c_saaremaa is his vassal Dergun Kask (with vassal Hiiumaa temple)
- c_tartu is his vassal Setyamka Tamm
- d_estonia is ruled by Altocumulus Parn (no vassals)
- c_ingria is independent, ruled by Uchva Saar
- d_kurzeme consists of only c_kurzeme and is ruled by Sabe von Kurs
- d_semigallians is titular duchy, consists of c_zemgale and is ruled by Kurlemuše Goštautas (has vassal temple of Riga)
- c_memel is vassal to d_zemaitija, ruled by Lettigalian Dovyat von Memel
- c_latgale is independent, ruled by Erasts Sirkants

Real:
- c_liivimaa should be independent, and ruled by same Kaupo
- c_saaremaa should be independent and rather powerful relative to its neighbors (Estonian users to provide feedback on ruler)
- not sure about c_tartu and c_laanemaa, probably should be renamed, probably can be ruled by young High Chief Lembitu or his father
- d_estonia should change its ruler, at least name
- c_ingria, change ruler name, what else?
- d_kurzeme, d_zemgale should be ruled by Bandava and Tervete dynasties to have our heroes as children (Lamekins of Bandava, Viesturs of Tervete)
- c_latgale should be ruled either by Romuva vassal of Polotsk OR by underaged Visvaldis of Jersika himself. He should be Orthodox, bastard of one of Polotsk Grand Princes. Bastard to have Jersika dynasty, different to Rurikids
- ?? barony of Talava to be added to Liivimaa, with Talivaldis of Beverina dynasty ruling it, himself vassal of Polotsk??
- c_memel added to d_curonia directly

=Year 1204=
Current CK2 State description:
- All Livonia (d_livonia, d_curonia, c_latgale) is ruled by High Chief of Livonia (German, historical person Wenno von Rohrbach, first Grand Masters of Sword Brothers)
- His vassals are Catholic Kaupo Turaida of c_livland (historical person), Suomenusko Dergun of c_osel (non historical person, Dergun is not Estonian name)
- North Estonia (d_estonia) is ruled by High Chief Altocumulus (Suomenusko Estonian).

Real:
- c_livland was ruled by Order
- all the other chiefdoms were still ruled by local Chiefs
- wars were on-going however

=Year 1220=
Current CK2 State description (shall be added):

Real:
only c_osel, c_zemgale, c_curonia were still free by 1224


=Year 1241=
Current CK2 State description (shall be added):

Real:
(shall be added)

 

[Darkgamma]

> Altocumulus Parn
????

Edit: Do they really do that in the vanilla history files?

 

[Narvait]

> Altocumulus Parn
????

Edit: Do they really do that in the vanilla history files?

This is name of your starting character for d_estonia in 1187 and 1204 starts

 

[Darkgamma]

That sucks D:

 

[Thure]

They already removed the strange estonian names from the cultural name list... But they didn't remove them from the history files...

 

[Narvait]

We will fix that with this mod and hopefully provide with some meaningful alternatives for that time and place should Paradox decide to update their files. Looking at Estonian users here

But, to balance out, I should give credit to Paradox. For example, using Curonian Kings dynasty names for Lettigallian rulers means they did some research on Latvian matters. Which is exactly 'some research' more than other games I know

This mod main task is to give us our only known native historical "kings" to play with.

 

[BaronIronmaggot]

Talking about Estonian polities. All of the counties should be independent. d_estonia should be a title that natives will never form. There was never an overarching name for their area among them.

c_reval - it should be an independent polity. It should be called Räpälä.

c_narva - it should be an independent polity, called Wironia (it is the latin version since there is no surviving record of the original - modern name is too ... ahem ... modern)

c_dorpat - it should be an independent polity, called Ugandi.

c_osel - it should be an independent polity, called Osilia (it is the latin version since there is no surviving record of the original and the modern name is too mordern).

Läänemaa (can't remember its ID) - it should be an independent polity, called Sakala. Ruler Lembitu Leole.

 

[Narvait]

Few questions:
1) Is not Wironia same thing as Viirumaa? Just one in Latin, other in native. If so, I would go with local.
2) when you say "natives will never form", I assume you mean that no duchy level titles should be present, but during game AI or player should be able to consolidate lands in duchies?
3) which birth year would you arbitrary choose for Lembit?
4) any ideas on semi/pseudo historical dynasty names for Estonian chiefs by land? Like based on biggest hillcastle on region?

 

[BaronIronmaggot]

1) "Virumaa" is modern day name. The "-maa" in the end evolved there few centuries later, earlier it wasn't there. And according the estonian language cases system and how the languages evolve, it should have additional letter or letters after the remaining "Viru". Some think it was "Virun", where the "-n" is generic ending that signifies that the name is a place name. Safest bet would be to go with "Viru" if you want a native name for that place. (I can provide you with barony names if needed aswell).

2) I mean that they would never form a duchy named "Estonia", since it is a name given by foreigner. After all the name "Estonia" means "eastern land". It would perhaps be better to have each county form their own duchy level title. County of Räpälä forming Duchy of Räpälä, County of Osilia forming Duchy of Osilia and similarily for the rest of the counties. Perhaps it would be better if all of them started by already controlled their specific duchies. They should be titular. At the same time they should be unable to form the d_livonia or d_estonia. Then you should write an event that fires when most of Estonia is under one titular duchy and then turn d_estonia or d_livonia into that titular one.

3) 1172

4) Okay:
1st possibility - take a first name and attach "-pere" to it. You would be better off posting the names you want to attach "-pere" to to here so that I could do the transformation, since estonian requires some changing of ending letters when words are attached to each other.

A selection of ancient forts:

VIRU:
-Kongla
-Purtse
-Roela
-Kalina
-Avispea
-Alu

RÄPÄLÄ:
-Ahisilla
-Jägala
-Keava
-Kuusalu
-Voose

SAKALA:
-Akupere
-Keblaste
-Kurese
-Lõime
-Mädara
-Soontagana
-Virusaare

OSILIA:
-Asva
-Kaali
-Kaarma
-Kalana
-Muhu
-Paatsa
-Pidula
-Purtsa
-Päälda
-Võhma

UGANDI:
-Agemäe
-Erumäe
-Karula
-Aakre
-Makita
-Oandi
-Truuta
-Kure
-Kõrista
-Hinni

 

[Es57]

> Altocumulus Parn

This is all very cloudy to me...

I guess he's supposed to be King Cumulonimbus' brother !

 

[Narvait]

1) Viru sounds OK.
2) OK, but this will be out of initial minimum scope
3) OK
4) will check wiki. For Viru I found for example chief Thabelin of Pudiviru. If you think it is Bad choice (which is cool I am by no means Eesti expert), please offer better one.

 

[Narvait]

YEAR 1187 INITIAL TASKS

LATVIA
1. Kurzeme - ruled by High Chief Kalvis (37) of dynasty Bandava (CoA - black ship on red shield). Has oldest son Lamekins 7 years old.
-- historical and/or mythological reasons --
In chronicles there is mentioned Lamekinus of Bandava who signed peace agreement with Order on 1230. He is the only known Curonian leader of XIII century and besides legendary Loker and Durno of Saxo Grammaticus (both before Xth century) the only Curonian leader known. I assumed he would be 50 when he signed agreement, so at 1187 he was 7.
Father's name - unfortunately I also did not find sources on other noble/non-noble pre-Christian Curonian names. So, I used name who was surname used by Kuršininkai (people believed to have preserved Old Curonian-ish language). Also this name is known personal name in Latvia, it means smith/blacksmith.
CoA - ahistorical. Ship - because Curonians were known pirates/vikings in Baltic Sea. Black & Red because it looks good and also later Duchy of Kurland (local colonial power with colonies in Tobago and Gambia) used these colors for Navy - black cancer on red flag.

2. Memel - directly under High Chiefdom of Kurzeme
-- historical and/or mythological reasons --
Chiefdom of Memel was part of Curonian lands. It probably would make sense to have seperate ruler historically. But I have no idea on dynasty/ruler name, etc.

3. Zemgale - ruled by High Chief Madis (54) of dynasty Tervete (CoA - green oak on golden shield). Has oldest son Viesturs 16 years old (brave, strong, trusting, brilliant strategist, inspiring leader).
-- historical and/or mythological reasons --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viestards
Viesturs is attested in Livonian Chronicle frequently from 1205-1229. Probably died ~1230. I assume 1205 he was 34 years old and lead armies aged 34-59.
Brave & Strong - on 1229 already older rex got surprise attacked in his tent by Crusader Komtur of Aizkraukle Marquart von Burbach and his men. He had no sword so he took burning wood from fireplace and beat the shi**, sorry teeth out of komtur's face and avoided capture.
Strategist & inspiring leader - in all military conflicts he lead armies. He lead joined Crusader and Semigallian forces to Lithuania. He lead joined Curonian and Semigallian forces to Riga. Inspiring leader should ensure he is used in center.
Trusting - he first entered alliance with Crusaders, and only later noticed that Crusaders had used him in their divide et impera strategy.
Father's name - Madis is attested as proper Semigallian noble name. No other reason.
CoA - Tērvete is place in Latvia that to me associates with Oaks and it is in Zemgale our Latvian wheat land.

4. Latgale - ruled by Chief Visvaldis (15) of dynasty Jersika (CoA - ??). He is bastard of Polotsk Rurikid Grand Prince. Orthodox Lettigalian. Landed by Polotsk Grand Prince, now vassal of Polotsk.
-- historical and/or mythological reasons --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visvaldis
Chronicle mentions him from 1203 to 1214. His death around 1230. Order attacked him despite being Christian (Orthodox) since he was ally for pagan Lithuanians. His lands were conquered and divided. Several Baltic German noble clans claims matrilineal descendant from his only child daughter. Nobody knows for sure his ancestry, but scholars speculate he could be son of Boris Davidovic, duke of Polotsk and Lettigalian mother.
CoA - I was looking for Rurikid symbol in ruler designer to change colors, etc, but there was none..
No father/ruling alone - simply because his dad was High Chief/Duke of Polotsk and AI might not land him.

5. Liivimaa - ruled by Chief Kaupo (22) of dynasty Turaida (CoA - ??). Still Suomenusko, was baptised 1191.
-- historical and/or mythological reasons --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caupo_of_Turaida
Chronicle mentions him from 1191 - killed in battle 1217. Got baptised, became vassal and partner of Crusaders. He actually was not Chief of all ck2 Liivimaa, but no point in splitting land even further.

6. Tālava, Beverīna, Wends - will not be present for now. Tālava was located in Liivimaa but ruled by Talivaldis of Beverina. An important person in our national romantic poetry. But not that important historically. Became partner of crusaders. Wends - special tribe in Liivimaa that nobody has clear understanding about (Slavs, West Balts, Liivi). Castle of Wenden. But making 1 or 2 baronies in Liivimaa, one of them (Talava) as vassal of Polotsk I think would complicate things more, besides would not add playable characters.

...to be continued with ESTONIA, but my knowledge there is even more limited than in LATVIA I am now reading about Otepeh (Bear Head) castle. So Otepaa dynasty ruling Ugandi is a must have! /but- so much chaos! Russians this, Russians that, Crusaders there, baptise to Orthodox, baptise to Catholic, denounce Christianity... Jesus

 

[Narvait]

ESTONIA

1. Ugandi - ruled by Ihavald (37) of Otepaa dynasty. CoA - something with bear head.
-- historical and/or mythological reasons --
Ruler name - no ruler names known for Otepaa, except adventurous Vetseke of Koknese, possibly brother of Latgale's Visvaldis, on short period after 1200. I used Ihavald arbitrary, also because -Vald makes sense close to Balts and Slavs.
Dynasty/CoA - main castle of region was Otenpeh/Otepaa, Estonian for Bear's Head.

2. Sakala (Laanemaa) - ruled by Ilmalemb (62) of dynasty Leole, CoA ??. Has two sons Lembit (15), brave, strong, and Unnepewe (2).
-- historical and/or mythological reasons --
Lembit was mentioned by Livonian Chronicle since 1211-1217. 1211 as raider, 1217 as leader of united Estonian forces against Crusaders. Died in battle 1217.
Father's name/age arbitrary. Took -lemb ending. Brother mentioned in sources as Lembit's successor.
Dynasty - Lembit's castle name.

3. Viru - ruled by Tabelinus (23) of dynasty Pudiviru, CoA ??. Stewardship education and should be likely to choose business focus.
-- historical and/or mythological reasons --
From wiki I found that Tabelinus got baptised in Gotland before Livonian Crusade, but I guess after 1187. He died 1224. He is mentioned in chronicles as Tabelinus of Pudiviru (hence dynasty name).
Stewardship & business - because of baptise in Gotland.

4. Osilia - ruled by Vesse (37) of Valjala dynasty. Military education. Ships and more levies than nearby counties. CoA - maybe a white ship on black shield?
-- historical and/or mythological reasons --
No known names from this period, so I used leader of later upriding for name.
Dynasty - Valjala was mentioned as one of two stronghold on island + have a bonus of reminding Valhalla.
CoA - Pirates of Baltic and similar to Curonian flag.

4./5. Ravala and Osilia are the most difficult to come up with something


...to be continued..

 

[Narvait]

Btw, just noticed 1187 is the Sigtuna date.

 

[Narvait]

Yaay, first success! Getting familiar with modding stuff.

Meet Visvaldis, Livonian Chronicle Rex of Jersika. What is moded?
* Name and age.
* Dynasty and coat of arms.
* Being bastard of Rurikid Vasilko Validaravich (according to historians there are two versions of his father - Boris Davidovich (not present in ck2) and Vasilko Validaravich (present in ck2 as chief of Orsha)).
* Being vassal of d_polotsk.
* Trait content.



The problem that I see right away, is that in 9 out of 10 cases Latgale would become Russian in no time, since start 1187. Who knows, maybe that is what history would be had crusaders never come to Baltics, although alternatively Latgale could become Lithuanian together with Polotsk itself.
edit: Latgale is still proper Lettigalian Romuva.

edit2: Latvian side of things 1187 is done. Kaupo still rules both Liivimaa and Laanemaa, but once Laanemaa is renamed into Sakala and character for Lembitu is done, it is done.
For Estonian side I would like to hear some Estonian comments on my proposals above and maybe some suggestions for Ravala ruler and dynasty on 1187, including age of ruler. No info on Ravala chiefs at all

 

[Narvait]

Ok, did also other dynasties and test play. With former d_livonia counties independent it was over for them real quick.
Curonians conquered Saaremaa, Pruthenians Livland and Ugandi. I played Latgale, vassal of Polotsk without doing much.

 

[Narvait]

While I am at it.
Also changed Lettigalian names list

From:
Aishno Ako Ankad Baise Balodis Bikshe Borut Bulei Butovit Cirulis Dangeruthe Darbeslave Dausprungas Davins Demas Dobre Dovyat Dzintis
Elmede Erasts Erdzivil Galeine Gastile Gedere Gerden Gibedats Giemund Golovke Gotene Gunvald Imanta Janis_John Jaunule Jedetus Juvage Kage
Kaire Karijotas Karnak Kaupo Kerstigens Kiten Klavess Kodere Kuliens Kurlemuse Lammekinus Likiik Litto Lonkogveni Manvydas Meinekinus
Mendune Nameisis Narvait Pliksov Pukiik Pukuveras Ringaudas Rushky Rusins Sabe Sargun Scurdo Shutr Shvarnas Skornand Sprudeik Stegut
Steikint Sviendorog Talivaldis Tautvila Traidenis Treniota Vaishvilkas Valikaila Vetseke Viesturs Visheiv Vishikut Vishly Vykantas Yudki

To:
Valdis Visvaldis Talivaldis Gunvaldis Miervaldis Raganvaldis Ramvaldis Druvvaldis
Viesturs Nameisis Lammekinus Varidots Kairis Rusins Madis Shabis Gailis Ramekis Dabrelis Darbeslavis Vetseke Dainis Dauksha Lokerus Dorno
Austris Auseklis Dzintars Vilnis Kalvis Agris Alnis Modris Laimonis Ziedonis Zintis
Jumis Trimpus Usins
Balodis Baise Bikshe Cirulis Daugeruts Dausprungs Davins Demas Dobre Elmede Erasts Gibedats Galvis Janis_John Jaunulis Jedetus Juvage Kage
Karijots Kerstigens Klavess Kuliens Kurlemuse Manvyds Meinekinus Mendunis Pukuvers Ringauds Rushkis Scurdo Shvarnis
Tautvils Traidenis Treniota Vaishvilks Valikails Vykants Yudkis Butovits Narvaitis Sarguns Shutris Skornands Sprudeiks Steiguts Svendarags Vishikuts Erdzivils
Andris_Andrew Antons_Antoninus Bartulis_Bartolomeus Krishjanis_Christian Kristaps_Christopher Konstantins_Constantine Davis_David Justs_Eustace Jurgis_George Ansis_Hans Jekabs_Jacob Janis_John Jazeps_Joseph Lauris_Laurence Markus_Marcus Martinsh_Martin Matiss_Matthew Mikelis_Michael Niklavs_NicholasPatriks_Patrick Pavils_Paul Peteris_Peter Toms_Thomas Aleksandrs_Alexander



- First line is names with -Valdis (-ruler): Ruler All-ruler Far-ruler Fire-ruler Peace-ruler Whitch-ruler Calm-ruler Cornfield-ruler
- Second line is names attested in ancient nobles in Latvia different sources
- Third line is names used today of Latvian origin (Dawn, Morning Star, Amber, Wave, Smith, Early, Elk, Alert, Happy/Lucky, Heyday, Incantation
- Fourth line is names for minor Gods (fertility, fertility, horses and bees and fertility)
- Fivth line is taken from existing names but adjusted/Latvianised. Our nominative is very archaic (like Greek or Latin) and requests male names to end with -s, -is, -us with few exceptions.
- (edited) Sixth line is the Christian names line, defined to be used only when Lettigalians convert.

And the "gada " for dynasties, which makes little sense. I changed it to "no dzimtas ".
Gada means yearly. No dzimtas means of clan. Druvvaldis no dzimtas Latgale or no dzimtas Nassau. It makes some sense, "no" could be used alone, but then name form for Latgale, Nassau would have to change - no Latgales, no Nassavas.

 

[Thure]

I really love your ideas! Just awesome and you show a great knowledge on the topic. I'm sure I will ask you for some help for my map mod if I work on the history files of the Baltic states (if you would like to help me).
Hm... Do you think a own Selonian, Semigalian, Yatvingian and Curonian culture would make sense? (at least for my mod with more provinces) And if so... could you help with name lists for this cultures? I'm pretty sure that I will at least add Curonian and Livonian

 

[Narvait]

Thanks for feedback!

I am ready to help, but I have to say right away there is not even a single mainstream theory on those matters.

P.s.
Special name lists for Curonians/ Selonians/ Semigalians are close to impossible. It would be using Latvian (Letiigalian) list and trying to apply some sound change rules to arrive at how those names sounded x centuries ago in Kurland... But I am not a linguist, and even them dispute whether Kursi were West or East Balts.