Regencies need to be able to dec wars

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zodium

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What makes it bad is when you get situations where the player couldn't reasonably account for them. There's not a whole lot you can do differently in most cases; you simply do less of what you'd do otherwise. Whether we introduce more control or not, it would be better if the player interaction with this mechanic carried more strategy.

As for "unavoidable catastrophic failure", monarchies/monarch points make them happen needlessly frequently by putting such large weight in terms of gameplay on so few rolls. There's a reason you see me complain about this, but not about the combat dice. The latter are every bit as "random" in that they use the same logic (AFAIK) for getting numbers via RNG as monarch stats or death timing. You can't control those dice either, but you can make choices that push you in greatly in the winning or losing direction regardless. Lots of choices, in fact.

For monarchies and their contribution to your resource pool, it's a lot more limited and a lot more dependent on what the game happens to decide you get. There are some cases where this might impact your decision making, but in most cases this fraction of the resource operates largely independently from player input and it's hard to see what it adds to the experience.

If you want to say that regency is worse because it actually locks out large portions of the gameplay however, I'd be inclined to agree.

Edit:

I guess we would need to define "catastrophic failure" though. It's more just an issue of progress being set by the game rather than the player once you get to the low ends of the distribution, whereas in most areas of it a majority of players will find other constraints limiting them more in practice, even at below average-to-average point incomes.

To illustrate, you'd need to be a reasonably strong player to truly press a 6/6/6 ruler income to its limits in terms of extra coring progress, because you still have to come up with money, manpower, and favorable diplomacy. At 0/0/0, you're gimped sufficiently that your monarch points can easily bottleneck you. At 3/3/3, your potential is less than 6/6/6 but the difference in progress is nowhere near the jump you get going 0/0/0 to 3/3/3.

National focus helped a lot since you can smooth the distribution in terms of which monarch point gets more or less, but very low values are still rate-screws regardless. I can understand that from a risk/reward standpoint since on average, a monarchy will be stronger than a republic in point incomes, but I dislike the inability for the game to let you hedge your risk in the vast majority of positions during the very time it matters the most.

If I suggested that your problem with monarchy MPP generation lies with the particular distribution it uses, and in particular the floor, would you object? Because I would be inclined to agree that when it does cause problems for game fun, it is when you roll a very bad ruler, but the problem isn't the fact that the roll was random or out of your control, or even its associated probability, it's that that particular roll was on the die at all. Off the top of my head, I think the game would be better off if the roll range was 1-6 instead of 0-6. A zero isn't necessarily unworkable, but it's not pleasant; a 1 is manageable.
 

TheMeInTeam

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If I suggested that your problem with monarchy MPP generation lies with the particular distribution it uses, and in particular the floor, would you object?

No, in fact I would look pretty bad if I tried to object to that given what you quoted! That said, I think monarchies could be better in general if they had a more interactive/engaging element to them, but if we're talking about just keeping the current model then calling it an issue of floor for me would be accurate.

If we're just altering the distribution, I'd have to give some thought where I'd set both the lower and upper bounds, because how they play out is different depending on tech groups.
 

Halaberiel

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I hate regencies so much I play republic whenever possible & if not cheat to make sure I always have an heir (and reload if my heir dies). Kinda sucks I have to do this, but worth it to not have to sit around doing nothing for 10+years. Agreed the game is too much based on combat for this to be in the game. It doesn't make sense either from a historical perspective. To be honest I just hate monarchies, I would play as merchant republic as every country if I could... Regencies are the main cause for this...
 

PhroX

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No, in fact I would look pretty bad if I tried to object to that given what you quoted! That said, I think monarchies could be better in general if they had a more interactive/engaging element to them, but if we're talking about just keeping the current model then calling it an issue of floor for me would be accurate.

If we're just altering the distribution, I'd have to give some thought where I'd set both the lower and upper bounds, because how they play out is different depending on tech groups.

One thing I've long pondered regarding upper and lower bounds on monarch stats is that they should depend on the type of monarchy. The more power focused in the monarch themselves, the lower the floors and the higher the ceilings - so an absolute monarchy would be like things are now, but a constitutional monarchy, where the influence of the king (both good and bad) is limited by parliament, the ruler stats would range from, say, 2-4, and so on.

It makes sense historically (albeit in a very simplified manner), and adds an extra level of risk vs. reward decision making to the game.
 

zodium

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Along those lines, it would be a pretty neat mechanic to have a trade-off between MPP ranges and government bonuses. That is, if you pick a more centralized government like Despotic Monarchy, then you get better government bonuses, but worse MPP ranges (e.g., 0-6) than the range you'd get on a more decentralized government such as Feudal Monarchy (e.g., 1-5) with worse government bonuses. I kind of want to make LA play along here too, but that would imply decentralized governments having less LA, which is silly, so yeah. :v
 

Viperswhip

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Can you get into an Enforce Peace war in a Regency? I must admit I often don't use that one since there are so many conditions on it. Also, now that you can ally countries at war you can easily get into wars all the time, there are so many workarounds to this issue that I don't feel it's a big deal anymore. It was pretty horrible in EU3 if you hadn't built up such a big bad boy reputation that you were constantly getting into wars being declared on you.
 

zodium

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Can you get into an Enforce Peace war in a Regency? I must admit I often don't use that one since there are so many conditions on it. Also, now that you can ally countries at war you can easily get into wars all the time, there are so many workarounds to this issue that I don't feel it's a big deal anymore. It was pretty horrible in EU3 if you hadn't built up such a big bad boy reputation that you were constantly getting into wars being declared on you.

Yeah, you can, there's only two conditions: it must be on an attacker, and you must have >=100 relations with the defender.
 

josh127

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Stagnation is boring. Encouraging stagnation by having random events kill your heir in a hunting accident and then the king dies a few months later is not good design when you're building a game that's supposed to provide entertainment. This is easily solved by rethinking a regency so that it doesn't cut out the prime feature of the game.

The concept that a regency makes the game hard is just silly. There's nothing hard about twiddling your thumbs at speed 5. I guess it gives me a chance to go make a snack or something, but it doesn't add to the game.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Enforce peace isn't as good as it was when you could take war leader with it. Doing that now is limited in utility as only with neighboring nations are you likely to get anything. A blitz on the war leader will usually just end with a faster white peace/minimal concessions, unless enemy WL borders you. It's something to consider but not really a replacement.
 

Teije

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One thing I've long pondered regarding upper and lower bounds on monarch stats is that they should depend on the type of monarchy. The more power focused in the monarch themselves, the lower the floors and the higher the ceilings - so an absolute monarchy would be like things are now, but a constitutional monarchy, where the influence of the king (both good and bad) is limited by parliament, the ruler stats would range from, say, 2-4, and so on.

It makes sense historically (albeit in a very simplified manner), and adds an extra level of risk vs. reward decision making to the game.

That is a very interesting suggestion - like it.
 

DicRoNero

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Of the two, influence + aristocratic is better because it lets you feed vassals and later annex them less expensively, but you're still waiting around 100 years at sub-20 provinces of your own, once you factor in the luck needed to get no heir or a weak claim heir.
I think I've got a perfectly legit opening for this case:
...I've just found an interesting early-game option: given both Ryazan and Tver have the same dynasty as you, the chances are high to claim throne & PU one of them and sell them the most of your provinces, thus getting into HRE in a quick and peaceful manner at the expense of some DIP points which you will spend annexing those provinces back. Pretty much just like a popular Polish strategy, but somehow I've never thought of it being applicable here.
This way, you can expand far beyond 20 provinces by just selling the excessive ones in due time. I'm still not convinced to pick Aristocratic as my second idea group, though. I don't quite like it as of 1.8 due to weak(er) policies.

Btw, are you allowed to freely switch from Noble Republic to other ones at the moment?
 
Last edited:

balmung60

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You should be able to, yes.

And Aristocratic's a pretty good idea group in its own right, and for policies, it has some pretty decent ones like the Licensing of the Press Act.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I think I've got a perfectly legit opening for this case:

This way, you can expand far beyond 20 provinces by just selling the excessive ones in due time. I'm still not convinced to pick Aristocratic as my second idea group, though. I don't quite like it as of 1.8 due to weak(er) policies.

Btw, are you allowed to freely switch from Noble Republic to other ones at the moment?

I know you can just sell off low tax provinces and keep 19 valuable ones, but completing 2 groups fully takes a long time, realistically you're not getting that much before 1500. Even junk OPMs can be at 100+ tax with already-dwindling autonomy by then, so while you can do this if you really want a republic it's prohibitively expensive, and that's assuming you have a ruler situation that allows the switch quickly after you have the ideas.

You're probably better off just having religious and/or aristocratic and getting revolutionary rebels. Aristocratic by itself gives you in the neighborhood of a 1/13 to 1/10 chance per five year pulse to get them, depending on your ability to exclude other factors. Religious has more events and exclusions so is a bit more complicated.
 

slv

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Religious and aristocratic both have revolutionary rebels, but they themselves are unreliable as they can spawn far from your capitol (and make no attempt at reaching it) or be killed by vassals against your will.
That's where 60 years MTTh comes from. That event will essentially have that MTTH (it's one of 12 events of a 5-year pulse).
 

DicRoNero

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I know you can just sell off low tax provinces and keep 19 valuable ones, but completing 2 groups fully takes a long time, realistically you're not getting that much before 1500. Even junk OPMs can be at 100+ tax with already-dwindling autonomy by then, so while you can do this if you really want a republic it's prohibitively expensive, and that's assuming you have a ruler situation that allows the switch quickly after you have the ideas.

You're probably better off just having religious and/or aristocratic and getting revolutionary rebels.
Well, in that particular case it's coupled by early westernization and the fact how you'd be selling the provinces anyway, hence the opportunity cost is much lower.

Rev. rebels are shit, I've never seen them doing what they are supposed to. Maybe I'm just unlucky here.
 

TheMeInTeam

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That's where 60 years MTTh comes from. That event will essentially have that MTTH (it's one of 12 events of a 5-year pulse).

It's a bit more or less because IIRC aristocratic has 13, but you can render 3 ineligible on purpose and possibly another 2 as well. If you keep manpower above 90%, WE below 5, and have negative stability you only have 10 possible outcomes on the 5 year pulse. Of those, only the WE one is probably worth it though.

Well, in that particular case it's coupled by early westernization and the fact how you'd be selling the provinces anyway, hence the opportunity cost is much lower.

I do not sell provinces to westernize. Especially now that it floors at 5/5/5 per month even if you have 2000 income for example, burning even more DIP on future annexation and taking 75% LA in diplovassaled provinces is brutal.

I find it amusing that if you are a western nation and you pick aristocratic or religious ideas 1st, your MTTH to get into a republic via rev rebels is high enough that it's more than 50/50 against that someone holding off on taking provinces would actually accomplish it faster.
 

DicRoNero

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I do not sell provinces to westernize. Especially now that it floors at 5/5/5 per month.
:D
I didn't mean that. What I'm saying is that westernization hinders your expansion and thus it makes sense to utilize this slow-paced period with most efficiency, by also accomplishing another goal such as government switch.
 

Viperswhip

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Enforce peace isn't as good as it was when you could take war leader with it. Doing that now is limited in utility as only with neighboring nations are you likely to get anything. A blitz on the war leader will usually just end with a faster white peace/minimal concessions, unless enemy WL borders you. It's something to consider but not really a replacement.

Oh, I only ask because my biggest issue with long regencies is the loss of Military Tradition and my great generals dying while standing around.