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Xain

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I'd like to submit a theme that - I reckon - hasn't been debated yet, though I find it would add some depth to CKII's mechanics : regencies.

In CK - as in history - it was really common to have kings who would inherit their reign at a very young age (some even in their very first age of life). In those cases, the reign would be de facto led by a regent - most likely, the queen mother, a direct uncle/cousin of the ruler, or the most influent courtier (in in-game dynamics, we could roughly translate it with character's prestige, but that may be argued).

It would be great to include such dynamics in the game, making clear, whenever a realm is led by a baby king (>16 y.o.), who is really in charge of the realm (and let his/her statistic count as the ruler’s for the regency period) : this might have heavy consequences, especially on vassals' loyalty, considering that the rise to power of a “child” as king is, in itself, a real threat for any vassal who considers declaring independency.

For example, a kingdom ruled by a sober and pious but weak-willed ex-steward as regent will probably have some trouble in maintaining order and loyalty ; if the regent is an unpopular bastard uncle, realm duress is assured during the regency period. On the contrary, if the regent is a wise yet strong-willed and cunning clergymen or a beloved Queen Mother, the transition period would be more smooth and even prosperous.

This will also have three consequences :

  1. Intrigues should be possible even at regent’s level – if the regent of the kingdom X despises my king, I might have a good reason to kill him, hoping for a more friendly regent to be appointed. Or, if I want to try to shatter my neighbor’s realm, I might just slay his mommy regent, knowing that in his court there is no other character that could assure realm stability.
  2. Regent, especially if they’re members of the dynasty and if they’re next in the line of succession, should have a way of usurping the legitimate king’s power or arrange succession lines in their favor ; in this case, they should also be more likely to try to scheme a plot for killing the rightful king, if they could benefit from his death.
  3. If the player’s dynasty is under a regency period, the player could lose the control over certain functionalities, that will be taken over by AI. When the king becomes more aged (13-14), he could maybe have all his prerogatives back, but with the possibility, at any time, of an event of the kind “Your regent strongly disagrees with your opinion”, in wich the player could chose to overrule him (the king gains the trait “stubborn”, strong possibility to have an enemy in the regent, possibility to have realm duress and even minor possibility to get killed), try to insist politely (could turn well or bad, minor possibilities to have either a friend or an enemy in the regent) or to accept the regent’s will (the king gains the trait “weak-willed” and loses prestige).

A similar dynamic could be reproduced also for acting kings, who are in charge of the kingdom when when the king is unavailable (ex. leading an army at war, or "severely wounded")
 
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A similar dynamic could be reproduced also for acting kings, who are in charge of the kingdom when when the king is unavailable (ex. leading an army at war, or "severely wounded")
Will the acting king be the one responsible for impregnanting my ruler's wife as well?
Somebody most be doing it, have had several rulers crusading for years at a time while the missus was back at home churning out potential heirs at an astonishing rate. I've always suspected there was a royal milkman involved somehow.
 

RedRooster81

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Will the acting king be the one responsible for impregnanting my ruler's wife as well?
Somebody most be doing it, have had several rulers crusading for years at a time while the missus was back at home churning out potential heirs at an astonishing rate. I've always suspected there was a royal milkman involved somehow.

Recall what Agamemnon had waiting for him when he came back from sacking Troy. On the point also, Crusaders should have regents at home; Richard Lionheart had Prince John after all. Not all regents need to be bad, or at least not worse rulers than their wards will be.
 

Serbon

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Will the acting king be the one responsible for impregnanting my ruler's wife as well?
Somebody most be doing it, have had several rulers crusading for years at a time while the missus was back at home churning out potential heirs at an astonishing rate. I've always suspected there was a royal milkman involved somehow.

As I remember there were some kings who brought their wives on the campaign
 

Cèsar de Quart

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Recall what Agamemnon had waiting for him when he came back from sacking Troy. On the point also, Crusaders should have regents at home; Richard Lionheart had Prince John after all. Not all regents need to be bad, or at least not worse rulers than their wards will be.

You're mistaken. Crusaders used to abdicate before going to the Crusade. Except for kings and some (very few) nobles, the vast majority went to the Holy Land after having given their lands to their heir, or a monastery if they had no one to give them to (this last one was more common for those who entered a military other, though).

If you want example, there's plenty. There you have Raymond of Toulouse. There you have Pierre de Courtenay. There you have Boniface of Montferrat. All of them left their estates and lands to their heirs before leaving.

There was two kinds of crusaders: the big guys (landed, important men, who left for reasons of piety or politics, and abdicated, leaving their life back) and the third-or-more-borns (that is, those knights or sons of important families that, being the third, fourth-borns, or the bastards, could not inherit a thing, or would recieve very little. That's Bohemond of Taranto's case, as well as Robert of Normandy)
 

Don_giorgio

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Perhaps there would be an event when the ruler is too old or really realy sick asking u to make a will in which u can name the regent for your infant son or if u trust nobody appoint a council of regents... Another cool thing is the institute of co-Emperor or co-King... Byzantines did that a lot in orfer to achieve a smooth transition of power... Maybe this could be a trigered event for the Byzantine Emperor asking u to name one of your sons co-Emperor (acquiring the trait co-Emperor) or another relative if u are childless... Maybe it could be an intrigue event also if the army or someone else rises against the Emperor and if they prevail they can either force u to abdicate (if u are realy realy bad) or make u take a co-Emperor...
 

Don_giorgio

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There should be an event in which u get to decide in making a will deciding over who will be Regent or appoint a Regency Council in case of your death... Or if ruler dies suddenly (assassinatedm killed in battle etc.) AI decides between a Regency Council or a single Regent... If there are living relatives of first degree living in court (aka mother, uncles etc) AI has more chances to appoint a single Regent... If not then AI could appoint your advisors (aka Marshal, Steward, Spymaster, Chancellor and Diocese Bishop) to act as a Regency Council...
 

DreadLindwyrm

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You're mistaken. Crusaders used to abdicate before going to the Crusade. Except for kings and some (very few) nobles, the vast majority went to the Holy Land after having given their lands to their heir, or a monastery if they had no one to give them to (this last one was more common for those who entered a military other, though).

If you want example, there's plenty. There you have Raymond of Toulouse. There you have Pierre de Courtenay. There you have Boniface of Montferrat. All of them left their estates and lands to their heirs before leaving.

There was two kinds of crusaders: the big guys (landed, important men, who left for reasons of piety or politics, and abdicated, leaving their life back) and the third-or-more-borns (that is, those knights or sons of important families that, being the third, fourth-borns, or the bastards, could not inherit a thing, or would recieve very little. That's Bohemond of Taranto's case, as well as Robert of Normandy)

Well, Richard the Lionheart didn't abdicate. He left his brother as a regent. So, I'd have to say you are at least partially mistaken. IIRC the other kings on that crusade didn't abdicate either. I don't know about lower nobles on the crusades, but if the king isn't abdicating, I'd doubt the nobles were either.
There is a difference between handing the lands to your son to administer for you whilst you crusade, with the caveat that if you return you will want them back, and abdication. The intention may be to not return - i.e. to die on crusade, or if successful to take up lands in the Holy Land - but if you did return you would want your lands back.
 

RedRooster81

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Well, Richard the Lionheart didn't abdicate. He left his brother as a regent. So, I'd have to say you are at least partially mistaken. IIRC the other kings on that crusade didn't abdicate either. I don't know about lower nobles on the crusades, but if the king isn't abdicating, I'd doubt the nobles were either.
There is a difference between handing the lands to your son to administer for you whilst you crusade, with the caveat that if you return you will want them back, and abdication. The intention may be to not return - i.e. to die on crusade, or if successful to take up lands in the Holy Land - but if you did return you would want your lands back.

That's essentially how William the Bastard became Duke of Normandy. Robert I left son as regent, made it to Jerusalem but died on the way back, at Nicaea. It would be nice in such cases to turn the departing monarch over to AI control while the regent, if he is also the heir apparent, should become the primary character.
 

Don_giorgio

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How about when the King has died childless and several of the nobles who can claim descendance from the royal family present the case to the Regent/Regency Council? This could lead to some really cool events... This could lead to a civil war among the claimants of the crown or the Regency Council could call upon the Pope and/or their powerful neighbour to act as arbitrators...
 

SaberHRE

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You're mistaken. Crusaders used to abdicate before going to the Crusade. Except for kings and some (very few) nobles, the vast majority went to the Holy Land after having given their lands to their heir, or a monastery if they had no one to give them to (this last one was more common for those who entered a military other, though).
I think this would be the example of the crusaders of the 1st crusade. In terms of later crusades, I don't think there are any official documents talking about official "abdication". The term abdication itself is misleading, because if I'm not wrong, abdications where theoretically impossible because they would have conflicted with the notions of divine rights of the king and nobility. So while the term abdication might have been used in a modern sense, it usually meant stepping aside for your heirs to take over, while your still nominally the head of state.

But the idea of regency is excellent. Older Kings with young sons always prepared for the idea of regency by providing good tutors and powerful guardians of the throne.

I think the idea of regency can be represented through events, where a heir younger than 14 must be appointed a guardian/regent who would assist him in ruling.

Perhaps regencies could be in a way linked to ruling laws. Obviously in a country that has already experienced a case of a very young king gaining the throne, they'll be more likely to have a law where a council of regency or a single regent will be appointed in the nearing days of the old kings life. The temporary "regent" title could be given like the emperor title in CK1 (non-inheritable) and can be granted through national decision type(once certain requirements are met). In this type of regency the young king retains all the control of his lands, while the regent serves as a advising/assisting body.

If a country doesn't have any laws regarding regency, the most powerful relative will take over. In this style of regency the king will possibly be limited to a certain number of most loyal fiefs, while the rest will be controlled temporarily by the regent. The regent takes control of the country too. The regent will of course HAVE to give up the power once the king is of age (say 14 or 16).

In the meantime however the regent can do everything to seize the power away from the monarch. He can only be successful if he has good relationship with the vassals of the land, be of immediate royal blood, have enough prestige to support himself in case of deposing the ruler.

In this case deposition could be either public, or covert (possibly through assassination)

Of course in case of a AI regent, all his actions should be determined through the traits he has.
 

RedRooster81

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I would like to see the ability to rule on the claims of a spouse, infant child, or other close relative (with a hit to prestige maybe). In 1066, there are a few heiresses like Agnes of Aquitaine and Gerberge de Provence who are highly desirable heirs for unmarried monarchs and their heirs. They could naturally rule in their own right with agnatic succession, but as in the historical case of Henry II of England, a husband could in some cases administer his wife's land in her right. The problem, too, is that childbirth was a very risky occasion for a woman. In some cases playing CK1, I have married Agnes or Gerberge. They inherit their father or brother's duchies respectively, then die in childbirth, leaving a ten-month-old with several perturbed vassals and in Aquitaine's case four or five counties to administer. With good regency events, the inheritance could be secured, so in time the late duchess's son can inherit her lands in his own right and also those of his father.
 

Don_giorgio

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I would like to see the ability to rule on the claims of a spouse, infant child, or other close relative (with a hit to prestige maybe). In 1066, there are a few heiresses like Agnes of Aquitaine and Gerberge de Provence who are highly desirable heirs for unmarried monarchs and their heirs. They could naturally rule in their own right with agnatic succession, but as in the historical case of Henry II of England, a husband could in some cases administer his wife's land in her right. The problem, too, is that childbirth was a very risky occasion for a woman. In some cases playing CK1, I have married Agnes or Gerberge. They inherit their father or brother's duchies respectively, then die in childbirth, leaving a ten-month-old with several perturbed vassals and in Aquitaine's case four or five counties to administer. With good regency events, the inheritance could be secured, so in time the late duchess's son can inherit her lands in his own right and also those of his father.

I agree... i d love to see ruling "iure uxoris" in CKII...
 

RedRooster81

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I agree... i d love to see ruling "iure uxoris" in CKII...

It would be cool, wouldn't it? At the very least, I would like to see my king be regent over any infant chlld's realm and not have a wife or young child give fealty to another king. As in Eleanor's case, at the very least, the wife should not be under another liege, if at all possible, but if she wants her independence, she should at least ally with her husband (they do have a marital alliance after all). That way, for instance the king of France cannot seize Aquitaine and leave me with no claim on the territory.
 

Orinsul

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Why have a regent, when you have the Court, surely in a kings minority and/or succession crisis, the average of the courts stats/strongest court member and various loyalities should define the kingdom, no?
 

RedRooster81

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Why have a regent, when you have the Court, surely in a kings minority and/or succession crisis, the average of the courts stats/strongest court member and various loyalities should define the kingdom, no?

Not automatically, unless this has been implemented in CK2. The core problem with child monarchs was the intrigue stat. With zero intrigue, a king could normally rule two or three provinces with some level of efficiency. If you inherit more, things got ugly for quite a while. So i hope regencies have been handled in vanilla CK2 or the means of determining the demesne penalty (or limit) has been overhauled (I know it now relies on baronies rather than counties, but still, you should not have to give away your inheritance off the bat because of low intrigue skills, which always has long-term consequences).
 

Don_giorgio

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Oct 2, 2010
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I think that rulers must have an option (through an event perhaps?) that would allow them to make a will in which they could appoint a Regent or a Regency Council in case of their early death... This could trigger some cool chain events... Such as "The Parliament refuses to ratify the will of the late King" or "The nobility considers the will a forgery" etc. ... And then have the court split in factions... As for Byzantines i think that a special form of regency must be implementd since historically the infant Emperor's mother would marry a powerful courtier/general and named him co-Emperor with her son... Also this could lead to some really cool Byzantine intrigue events...
 

Orinsul

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If court is like EURome has it, even wills and factions will not be needed as the Court can act like a Regency Council with the Chancellor or Spymaster as its head. And the preferred heir mechanic to take care of the faction spliting.