Regarding the devs saying that we play as "soul of nation rather than leadership" to justify players building private industries

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In the context of Victoria 3, a government telling citizens how capital must be allocated (i.e. the investment pool) is not what you're describing at all. Specifically, 'A government overseeing the surveying, building, and permissions of a factory that a private proprietor owns it for themselves, and does all those things independently of the government, is not' is not the case in Victoria 3
Here you are entirely wrong. If you build something from the investment pool to build factories:

Capitalists use their money to build the factories.
Capitalists own the factories.
Capitalists earn the profits from the factories.

No government involved. That's really it, and it's astounding that people cannot grasp this simple concept.
 
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No, it's when a planning committee determines such things.

In the context of Victoria 3, a government telling citizens how capital must be allocated (i.e. the investment pool) is not what you're describing at all. Specifically, 'A government overseeing the surveying, building, and permissions of a factory that a private proprietor owns it for themselves, and does all those things independently of the government, is not' is not the case in Victoria 3, because for all intents and purposes
  • the profits are owned by the government (they go into the investment pool which is under government control)
  • the private proprietor (capitalist in V3) does not operate independently of the government (again, they are not actors in V3 which is the core problem)

You imply that the investment pool is akin to benign things like government oversight of building like with zoning laws or building codes which is silly considering no such thing forces the private sector to allocate funds toward those projects. If Paradox implemented simple things like zoning restrictions instead of forcing capitalists to open their wallets then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
The investment pool is not under government control, that's the whole point why it's separate from state funds. Again, to repeat ad nauseum what has been said multiple times, the player IS NOT the government they are that nebulous "spirit of the nation" that some folks seem to hate the thought of and can't accept that's what they are playing. When using the investment pool the government is not telling capitalists what to do, the player is guiding what industries the capitalists are investing their money into.

The profits go to whoever owns the factory/resources extraction building/farm and to the workers. If that's a capitalist and it's a privately owned factory they get most of the profits and the workers get the rest as wages. If the government owns the factory they get the profit, which I imagine goes into state funds rather than the investment pool although it's not clear if that's the case so possibly the investment pool could work differently in a Command Economy, we just don't know at this point.

Capitalists probably keep some of the profit to buy luxury goods and whatnot, the rest goes back into the investment pool to be used for investment into more private industry buildings. The government does not own the profits unless they own the production buildings. Plain and simple.

Trying to divine what using the investment pool actually represents is just a futile effort, it's an abstraction and abstractions by their very nature are not going to be as concrete as "this is the government telling capitalists what to do with their money" or something like that. Again I get that you want capitalists to be independent actors, i.e. controlled by an AI, but this hyperbole of calling what the devs have set up a "command economy" or a "planned economy" just because the player seemingly controls the investment decisions of capitalists is why this whole discussion about the investment pool has been less than productive across the multiple threads covering it.
 
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The investment pool is not under government control, that's the whole point why it's separate from state funds. Again, to repeat ad nauseum what has been said multiple times, the player IS NOT the government they are that nebulous "spirit of the nation" that some folks seem to hate the thought of and can't accept that's what they are playing.
Call it whatever you want, but the player controls where and what is built in both planned economies and what's now called 'free trade' or whatever. It's impossible that the player is the government in the former and something else in the latter.
 
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Call it whatever you want, but the player controls where and what is built in both planned economies and what's now called 'free trade' or whatever. It's impossible that the player is the government in the former and something else in the latter.
Correct. The player is not synonymous with the government in either. The player is more than that.
 
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Here you are entirely wrong. If you build something from the investment pool to build factories:

Capitalists use their money to build the factories.
Capitalists own the factories.
Capitalists earn the profits from the factories.

No government involved. That's really it, and it's astounding that people cannot grasp this simple concept.

You keep restating that as if it's prima facie true. The entire argument in this thread is that it's not.
 
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You keep restating that as if it's prima facie true. The entire argument in this thread is that it's not.
You're so close to getting it. What I said is true, and the entire argument in this thread is that it's false, therefore the entire argument made by this thread is...

come on you can do this it's a simple logic problem. A is true. B is claiming A is false. Therefore B is...
 
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Yes of course. But considering all copies of one good is interchangeable there is perfect competition on the market and thus the profit maximisation is to work at full capacity. Unless paradox tries to model monopoly markets when there’s only 1 factory and no trade routes.
I don't think it's correct. Let's say factory is working at 90% capacity, producing 900 goods sold at 10 with costs of 9. So the profit is 900. If the labor is scarce and the only way to get more workers is to match what other industries offer this might mean increasing wages. But wages are universal, so increase would apply to existing workers too, so the cost per unit goes to 9.5. Now factory producing 1000 goods, price is unchanged, but cost is 9.5, so the total profit is only 500.
 
This "spirit of the nation" acts a lot like a state, with the limitations of the state, until they click the Investment Pool button.
Call it whatever you want, but the player controls where and what is built in both planned economies and what's now called 'free trade' or whatever. It's impossible that the player is the government in the former and something else in the latter.
Look, it's useless to continue arguing over what the player is because clearly both of you have made up your minds on the matter long ago.

I respect the opinion that there should be more AI control over investment decisions even if I strongly disagree with a lot of the logic and line of argumentation being used to justify why the system the devs have set up is not good. It is valid to have concerns over the different economic systems not playing differently enough and wanting a system in place that is felt to better represent how a more laissez-faire systems should work. It is another matter entirely to flatten all the differences we know and can deduce into "these all play the same" when the real concern is that they play differently but not differently enough.

In the end a lot of it is a matter of personal taste and whether you want a system closer to Vicky 2 or are ok with having more player control over the economy. Both of you fall into the former camp, that is fine, it's just futile to continue trying to argue over what the player is when the devs have stated what they view the player as and what is guiding their creative decisions. It's just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.
 
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No, it isn't. A command economy is when the state owns the means of production, directly sets all production quotas, wages, and such, and owns the products that are created with said means of production. A government overseeing the surveying, building, and permissions of a factory that a private proprietor owns it for themselves, and does all those things independently of the government, is not.
I think you're using "command economy" as political economy usually defines it and durbal is using command economy as in plain English. This makes me curious how this term came into existence in economics - is it perhaps a result of unfortunate translation from Russian or German?
 
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Hrm...

I'm pretty satisfied with the *concept* of capitalists and private industry functioning without player intervention in Victoria 2, even if the implementation left a lot to be desired.

Having a 100% command economy no matter your government is rubbing me the wrong way, especially in a game that is about the gilded age. You could say that political parties effecting gameplay was one of the major driving mechanics of the entire game, and I'm not feeling too good about what the game will be like without pop agency in capitalist societies. Every playthrough in Victoria 2 felt very different, mechanically, when you switched up the political parties and economic systems.

This will probably make me wait a few weeks before buying to test the waters rather then pre-order as I was intending.
 
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This "spirit of the nation" acts a lot like a state, with the limitations of the state, until they click the Investment Pool button.
Talking about investment pool while using theological question of which soul exactly is player in argumentation is not really productive. Player is what developer want player to be. I want capis to use their money themselves too, i, as player, do not want to play as them, i want them to be independent but just have some influence over their decisions, but from pure "gameplay", "player agency" standpoint, which anti capiAI "tribe" value the most this position seems to lose. A pity that most of them do not explain how exactly direct building via clicking "build building" is more interesting than indirect building via influencing capis decision and just state obvious things like: "it's that way because developer made it that way". Not very insightful, sadly.

But considering that peak "gameplay" is three-in-a-row, tetris and chess games, for me games are not all about "gameplay", they have many other important qualities, in which such independent agents as capiAI would win over any direct control.
 
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You keep restating that as if it's prima facie true. The entire argument in this thread is that it's not.
The second two points are, in fact, correct if the factories are Privately-Owned. It's the first point that is what this thread is arguing about, whether capitalists are really using their money to build factories or "the government" being viewed as the player is dictating to them what to do with it and if the latter is the case how that's bad and is making every economic system play as an "absolute command planned economy."
 
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The second two points are, in fact, correct if the factories are Privately-Owned. It's the first point that is what this thread is arguing about, whether capitalists are really using their money to build factories or "the government" being viewed as the player is dictating to them what to do with it and if the latter is the case how that's bad and is making every economic system play as an "absolute command planned economy."
Well, if player plays as capitalists, then player builds and owns factories, player automatically get profit from them, spends it automatically on some needs and then player puts remaining money in his investment pool. Also player does the same with state budget. Effectively player control and can plan and command the whole economy inside his state. From POV of player this is exactly command economy: he, as player, is building, planning everything.

I agree, there would be nuances of "you can build only these buildings with this pocket and you can't unconditionally subsidise them" that could make your decisions and goals different and significantly (Here, on this forum, are a lot of threads on this very topic). But how you implement these decisions in life is the same: you choose place, building, your pocket and then just build it. And from variety point of view this is a huge missed opportunity compared to possible further development of vic2 ideas, which could not only make difference in which decisions you want to take, but also how exactly you will implement these decisions. And this difference in "how do you implement your decisions in life" could influence decision making itself, it will break this "commanding economy" feel at the very least.

If you want some example, how this flattening, samefying of gameplay is happening, you don't need to go far away: take something like eu4. All states have different parameters like national ideas or governments, limitations, mission trees, geographic position, etc, it definitely influences your decisions and goals: yes, England or Muscovy or Venice all play differently. Yet, on the level of what you are actually doing, how exactly you are implementing decisions in life, it's all almost the same, extremely streamlined (not counting some magic buttons). The only place that has a bit a distinct thing about what you are doing is HRE, yet, due to streamlined player agency, differences are not that big. The opposite example would be something like ck2: playing as a republic one is building trade posts, potentially conquers local towns and fights with money and intrigue, which family would rule next term and will be able to siphon republic income for a bit longer. While norse raider can just sit at his cozy Sweden and amass riches by raiding Rome or Paris. The same holds for vic2: LF, due to inability to build and subsidise buildings, has differences on a level of what you are actually doing while developing your industry, compared to Planned Economy. Sadly, LF was not given enough toys to play and levers to pull, to make it possible to influence capitalists, to make playing as it more engaging. But these toys and levers could have been given. The ability to pass laws that give you different toys could be given. Yet again, it feels as missed opportunity to just give player a direct control over capitalists investments, not counting loss of additional benefits of having internal but independent agents.

As much as i want it, I don't think that vic3 should really have capiAI, honestly, because the game is already designed for direct building of stuff by player, it would be like making AI to build stuff in Anno and giving you some hastily built tools to influence it, which would not satisfy capi lovers and will only irritate capi haters. I think, Wiz should carry his vision right until the end so people, who like his vision, would enjoy the game, it definitely will be a good game for them.
 
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Haven't read through the entirety of these 21 pages but I don't mind directing Private funds (provided there are interest groups limitations on certain levels of government and economic stances.)

Reminds me of games like Distant World and Pride of Nations where there was a clear line between Public and Private funds. On occasion, private initiatives would be nice.
In Pride of Nations it was a good idea to make good investments so you could earn more private capital. Granted too much sitting around tended to cause issues.

Read somewhere a comment about the 'player having direct control' over POPs. That was definitely the case in Victoria I.
So long as the micro isn't too intense, it will likely be fine. I haven't seen anything in the Dev diaries that really scream out to me like in Imperator but I think the biggest sticking point will be military and naval management for me as the economic side of things (so far) doesn't look too bad.

It doesn't have to be HOI levels, but it definitely shouldn't be EUIV.
 
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it would be like making AI to build stuff in Anno and giving you some hastily built tools to influence it, which would not satisfy capi lovers
It might satisfy the capi lovers though - there are very little tools to influence capitalist decisions in Vicky 2 Laissez-faire (tax levels on the rich, tariffs or import subsidies for all goods at once and national focuses to encourage some particular factory type - that's pretty much it), and yet people who want capitalist AI in Victoria 3 seem to be finding this very limited toolset very fun to play with.
 
want this toolset to be expanded and made more powerful, not completely cut off and swapped with "second pocket". No one is saying that vic2 system was a heaven on earth.
Yes, indeed, I just wanted to point out how little tools are needed to make indirect gameplay entertaining enough. There is no need to design the whole game around it. Expanding the toolset is good, but it seems like we already get more than Vic2 offered (embargoes on particular goods, workers leaving for workplaces with higher pay so to keep low-paying places running we can implement minimal wages etc.).
 
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