Refugees

[Brian Bóroimhe]

Any such mechanic should be strongly tied to war weariness. So the first time a planet is attacked at the start of a war, they don't all just up sticks and leave. But when the war has been raging back and forth for years, maybe the planet was captured once, liberated and then captured again, then people should start looking to get the hell out of dodge.

But I don't know about pops being able to flee while their planet is under attack. I mean when your planet is blockaded by that huge fleet of alien warships indiscriminately nuking all your cities to ash, to the extent that a few billion people feel the need to cram onboard millions of barely space-worthy rust-bucket freighters, well, what's to stop that blockading armada from simply shooting you out of the sky?

It's maybe less analogous to a modern conflict in one side of a country driving large numbers of people to flee away from the region of conflict and closer to that of a medieval city being besieged (besides the obviously gargantuan difference in scale).

 

[BrokenSky]

Any such mechanic should be strongly tied to war weariness. So the first time a planet is attacked at the start of a war, they don't all just up sticks and leave. But when the war has been raging back and forth for years, maybe the planet was captured once, liberated and then captured again, then people should start looking to get the hell out of dodge.

But I don't know about pops being able to flee while their planet is under attack. I mean when your planet is blockaded by that huge fleet of alien warships indiscriminately nuking all your cities to ash, to the extent that a few billion people feel the need to cram onboard millions of barely space-worthy rust-bucket freighters, well, what's to stop that blockading armada from simply shooting you out of the sky?

It's maybe less analogous to a modern conflict in one side of a country driving large numbers of people to flee away from the region of conflict and closer to that of a medieval city being besieged (besides the obviously gargantuan difference in scale).

Well they might flee before the enemy actual arrive (maybe if they're getting into the system the pops have a small chance, modified by fear (They run from enemies known to use more aggressive orbital bombardment) and war weariness to flee every day?

"But wait!" you might say "won't this let me cripple my enemies economy by making all their pops flee?". The response (to this straw puppet ): I'm assuming that more extensive orbital bombardment has a chance to do infrastructure damage like destroying buildings, killing pops and even creating tile blockers (fallout or equiv). In this case, the bombardment was already going to crunch their economy; this just lets some of the pops flee, and most of those pops are going to try to flee to other, safer parts of the same empire, if there's space, only fleeing to other empires when they run out of space on non-occupied planets within the empire (though some will flee to other empires if they prefer their ethoi to their own empire, unless they're xenophobic and the other empire is a different species (read: character portrait) Also this would buff xenophobia because xenophobes would be less likely to leave. Assuming free migration, they should move back (because pops prefer less crowded planets) if there continues to be space after the war too. Amusing the original owner still owns it.

Refugee based migration might also occur if a pop is really unhappy, and there is another empire which better matches it's ethoi than yours nearby.

 

[Oscot]

But I don't know about pops being able to flee while their planet is under attack. I mean when your planet is blockaded by that huge fleet of alien warships indiscriminately nuking all your cities to ash, to the extent that a few billion people feel the need to cram onboard millions of barely space-worthy rust-bucket freighters, well, what's to stop that blockading armada from simply shooting you out of the sky?

Same reason the Imperial gunners didn't shoot down the robot's escape pod in Star Wars IV.
Waste of ammunition.

 

[lemmox]

Is Arab Toledo:
A) Provisioned with a massive welfare state that will give me a free house?
B) Full of extremely attractive women?
C) Implausibly xenophilic?
The answers to these questions will determine my answer to yours.

I love when I think we're talking about gameplay mechanics, but we're actually talking about everyone's political agenda.

For the sake of what little civility this forum is clinging to, let's not go there, okay @Oscot?

 

[Oscot]

For the sake of what little civility this forum is clinging to, let's not go there, okay @Oscot?

No deal.

 

[ParadiseCity]

Love the idea of refugees.
Would also be cool if federations had some policies that they voted on on this issue. For example a quota refugees. Let's say an neighboring empire of this federation are in an bloody civil war that has lasted many years. The empires in your federation vote for if and how many refugees each empire in the federation have to accept as an minimum requirement. This could cause both positive and negative outcomes. Empires just leave the federation because they refuse to accept any refugees based on their ethos could be a outcome, if the empire feels strongly against the laws that have been passed.

 

[Cynical Dreamer]

Refugees should, as has already been said, have an impact on diplomatic ties. If you accept to take them in, A/ should the target faction liberate itself, give you a signifcant boost to relations with them and B/ change part of the refugee pops into your own ideology, which means that the target empire would get closer to yours.

 

[lemmox]

No deal.

How high energy of you.

 

[Alwar]

How high energy of you.

Despite all the "enlightening" a lot of people show off here, oscot along a handful more, is someone who actually is logical and objective on his answers. Something we really lack lately in this our "civilized" world.

I for one welcome common sense in the forums instead sheeple echo chambers

Regarding the topic, it's a stupid idea created by a even more stupid political agenda in a game without even any minimum connection with said topic.

It's just beyond my comprehension how someone could think about this half seriously and say "yeah this will be a great idea, I will post about it"

Is the world insane or just paradrones having mental meltdowns while waiting for a pointless game in the political spectrum where this conversation belong?

Seriously I don't know how are the forums still open after all those cringeworthy threads. If I were you, devs and moderators, I would ban unconditionaly those kind of posters.

 

[Smiles_]

Regarding the topic, it's a stupid idea created by a even more stupid political agenda in a game without even any minimum connection with said topic.

It's just beyond my comprehension how someone could think about this half seriously and say "yeah this will be a great idea, I will post about it"

I'll go out and try to find you a nice home, as a refugee fleeing from the forum. Maybe I can find a bridge somewhere?

On topic, I think the idea has fair amount of merit, when tied to war exhaustion and weariness.


Smiles

 

[FelixG]

It sounds cool, but planets are big places. I can't see people fleeing whole planets just because there is war on part of it, much less fleeing to other neighboring empires when there are likely other worlds in the same empire that they could go to.

For example do you think people in Hawaii would flee to the UK instead of somewhere in the United States should fighting break out there?

 

[Cruxador]

Two main problems I see with this.

One, do you have the ability to detect and stop a civilian vessel? The point has been made previously that we have to infer the presence of a civilian shipping sector due to the fact of normal migration. The refugees could come in via that, and you literally can't see that in-game.

You (the player) can't see it because it's not important to you. You can see all ships that are important to you, though, and you can totally forbid civilian migration (with no possibility for failure) if you choose to do so.

they might turn up in dribs and drabs

Nonetheless, each drib or drab must come in a ship.

You can't blow up every transport that enters your skies, can you?

Every transport coming from wartorn space Syria? You bet I can. If I'm turning away refugees, I'm clearly playing as a xenophobe.

And once they land and the pops disperse into the grey economy, all the armies in the world (literally) ain't gonna find 'em.

Well, assuming they're the same species as my own, maybe. But even then, I could put a bounty on them.

Two: throwing ships and station strength and military power into the equation makes it a whole lot more complicated. I accept that it's fractionally more realistic, but it seems like a big solution to a small problem.

What intermediate solutions would you suggest to nefarious xenos attempting to creep into my pristine worlds?

Refugees should, as has already been said, have an impact on diplomatic ties. If you accept to take them in, A/ should the target faction liberate itself, give you a signifcant boost to relations with them and B/ change part of the refugee pops into your own ideology, which means that the target empire would get closer to yours.

Not necessarily. I think it might depend on personality. I could see nations getting mad that you're sheltering their runaways just as I could see a nation getting mad that you're showering them with burdensome mouths to feed. A lot of Cuban refugees went to the US after all, and it didn't ease relations at all.

How high energy of you.

Gotta respect a man who sticks to his principles.

 

[FelixG]

Every transport coming from wartorn space Syria? You bet I can. If I'm turning away refugees, I'm clearly playing as a xenophobe.

I don't think not wanting refugees from Space Syria makes you necessarily xenophobe.

For example if you are just an every day middle ground collectivist civilization and there are xenophobic individualists fleeing a wartorn empire its not xenophobic of you to go "Yeah why don't you guys try next door. Shoo."

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

For example if you are just an every day middle ground collectivist civilization and there are xenophobic individualists fleeing a wartorn empire its not xenophobic of you to go "Yeah why don't you guys try next door. Shoo."

That is, in fact, a very good example of xenophobia: you are saying that you do not want additional citizens if those citizens have some cultural differences. This cannot be called anything other than xenophobia.

 

[FelixG]

That is, in fact, a very good example of xenophobia: you are saying that you do not want additional citizens if those citizens have some cultural differences. This cannot be called anything other than xenophobia.

Xenophobia is described as "intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other (places)."

Knowing they wouldn't mesh well with your civilization is neither irrational nor intense. Hell, you don't even have to particularly dislike or fear them to not want them moving in on your planets.

I have a few acquaintances who I neither dislike nor fear, but still wouldn't want crashing on my couch!

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

Knowing they wouldn't mesh well with your civilization is neither irrational nor intense. Hell, you don't even have to particularly dislike or fear them to not want them moving in on your planets.

Again, the "them" and "you" logic is xenophobic logic. If you let these people in, they stop being part of "them" and start being part of "you."

I think a better couch analogy would be as follows:

"Hey, you're about to have someone else crash on your couch. Would you prefer it to be someone similar to you or someone different?"
Xenophobe: "Someone similar to me, so that I don't have to worry."
Xenophile: "Someone different from me, so I can learn from them."
Neutral: "Meh, either's good."

If you object to someone crashing on your couch at all, then your issue is not with xenophobia or xenophilia, but with population growth; and that's a very different issue.

 

[FelixG]

Again, the "them" and "you" logic is xenophobic logic. If you let these people in, they stop being part of "them" and start being part of "you."

I think a better couch analogy would be as follows:

"Hey, you're about to have someone else crash on your couch. Would you prefer it to be someone similar to you or someone different?"
Xenophobe: "Someone similar to me, so that I don't have to worry."
Xenophile: "Someone different from me, so I can learn from them."
Neutral: "Meh, either's good."

If you object to someone crashing on your couch at all, then your issue is not with xenophobia or xenophilia, but with population growth; and that's a very different issue.

THat raises the question of if it is possible to be altruistically xenophobic. If you know that "You" are completely and utterly different than "them" to the point where they would be unhappy (you are both aliens and collectivist while they are individualist and dislike/fear aliens) is it xenophobic to send them on toward somehwere they would be more happy, such as an individualst neighbor empire, they still have to deal with aliens but would be happier among other individualist rather than being among billions of collectivists.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

THat raises the question of if it is possible to be altruistically xenophobic. If you know that "You" are completely and utterly different than "them" to the point where they would be unhappy (you are both aliens and collectivist while they are individualist and dislike/fear aliens) is it xenophobic to send them on toward somehwere they would be more happy, such as an individualst neighbor empire, they still have to deal with aliens but would be happier among other individualist rather than being among billions of collectivists.

I'd argue that altruistic xenophobia would consist of taking all the resources that you would have spent on them if they became citizens of your empire, and spending those resources on them elsewhere. In the example of Syria, this may involve invading Syria and creating a safe zone; or it may involve bribing Turkey to settle them there. In Stellaris it may involve helping them colonise an uninhabited planet as a new homeworld.

 

[Baldor Arbanus]

I have nothing against refugees fleeing genocide committed by forms of life from another universe, it's just that most of them are criminals, rapists, drug addicts and yes maybe even a few of them are decent life forms.

But we simply can't take them in before we get a hang of the situation. So I will build a wall, a space wall, and I promise the Blorg will pay for it, yes they will pay for it ! #makespacegreatagain

Please. Krumpbot29 is nothing but a moderate. Vote Magus and get rid of the filthy Xenos once and for all I say. #votegeom3001

 

[Baldor Arbanus]

For example if you are just an every day middle ground collectivist civilization and there are xenophobic individualists fleeing a wartorn empire its not xenophobic of you to go "Yeah why don't you guys try next door. Shoo."

So, essentially Spess Saudia Arabia?