Reforming "Primitive" governments?

[Zephyrum]

With Cradle of Civilization, two government forms that have the option to reform now have special mechanics to boost them - Iqtas and Tribal Federations.

I'm not sure if I'm alone here, but I have the feeling that the governments that are typically deemed as "primitive" or "outdated" are considerably more powerful than the modernizes ones, and by quite the margin. Examples:

-Despotic Monarchy is as low as a Monarchy can get with tech. The unrest mitigation makes you more money than faster autonomy reduction ever will by avoiding rebel spawns more easily.
-Steppe Hordes remain the uncontested number one for WCs due to razing and it's vast military bonuses, concentrated on early game strength; when enemies are still an actual threat and not just boring.
-Feudal Theocracy can claim every neighboring province on a single click!
-The new tribal federations have a massive cavalry power from the ability + ratio bonus - and that's just a topping on the great cake that is years of separatism (effective -2.5 unrest on provinces) and WS cost (you can stack pretty high if you try it)
-Iqtas, I recall they have mechanics, though I don't remember them (haven't played them yet).

Meanwhile, arguably more "modern" governments suffer massive penalties:

-Merchant Republics are actually worse at trading than most others due to not getting Trade Efficiency from the estates (might as well just delete this government...)
-Constitutional and English monarchies give massive absolutism maluses, rightfully so, without bringing any interesting mechanics to the table - just the rather weak and boring parliament system (annoying to handle, doesn't give good bonuses)
-Absolute Monarchy, the only worthwhile late game government type, has been replaced by the absolutism counter (I like absolutism as is, just pointing out).

The exception to this rule is the revolutionary governments.

Does anyone actually reform as any of the non-american/siberian tribe government?

 

[qwertzuiop]

Iqtas cannot have consorts and tribal governments get events such as tribal feud. Tribal monarchies/despotism also get reduced diplomatic relations below Empire rank which can be bad early in the game (of course, once you become an Empire as a tribal despotism you have -15% core creation cost and no penalties anymore).

Apart from that I definitely agree with your observations. The "primitive" government forms are definitely very strong. I would still reform depending on the situation.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

It's just ridiculous how tribal despotism is the uncontested best government type (well, hordes are also great but a completely different game) and for the normal governments there is no reason to ever do anything besides despotic monarchy (yeah, revolutions, whatever, game is almost over already anyway). Adding new special governments is nice and all, but for the whole lifetime of the game the basic government progression has been completely fucked and the stupid 0-drawback/alternative implementation of absolutism only added to the issue.

 

[Zephyrum]

Iqtas cannot have consorts and tribal governments get events such as tribal feud. Tribal monarchies/despotism also get reduced diplomatic relations below Empire rank which can be bad early in the game (of course, once you become an Empire as a tribal despotism you have -15% core creation cost and no penalties anymore).

Apart from that I definitely agree with your observations. The "primitive" government forms are definitely very strong. I would still reform depending on the situation.

I don't think consorts pay off as much as those Iqta taxing policies. 5% core cost and massive jumps to money/manpower are probably well-compensating.

As for tribal feud - it's not *that* bad. It fires for both your good and bad rulers. It might get you rid of a crappy 0/1/2 or something just as it may kill your 5/4/5.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't think consorts pay off as much as those Iqta taxing policies. 5% core cost and massive jumps to money/manpower are probably well-compensating.

As for tribal feud - it's not *that* bad. It fires for both your good and bad rulers. It might get you rid of a crappy 0/1/2 or something just as it may kill your 5/4/5.

The risk of regency is real and makes iqtas pretty junky. I'd take generic despotic over them without hesitation. The other governments are pretty strong though.

It certainly is disappointing that constitutional monarchies and all non-rev republics effectively got patched out of the second half of the game.

 

[iquabakaner]

You're not going to change government when you're a feudal theocracy, so that's hardly a "primitive government". And merchant republic is not supposed to be a modern government, since all merchant republics historically declined very soon after game start.

 

[herrhals]

In EU3, changing governments had great bonuses, none better than affecting slider change times. I kind of miss those sliders (never thought I would say that).
I agree with everyone else here. Have not tried Iqta yet.

Has anyone an opinion on the Mamluk government?

 

[Zander]

For my own games, I've modded the max absolutism penalty some governments have from -20/-30/-40/-50 to -5/-10/-15/-20... and I'm still not sure they're worth changing to. Absolutism is so critical to most playstyles that the vanilla game can't really handle penalties to it.

 

[Zohtun]

In EU3, changing governments had great bonuses, none better than affecting slider change times. I kind of miss those sliders (never thought I would say that).
I agree with everyone else here. Have not tried Iqta yet.

Has anyone an opinion on the Mamluk government?

No regencies ever, rulers all having +2 to admin skill and powers which all gain more power based on how many provinces have the culture of your ruler.

It's fantastic. The only downside is the inability to disinherit (since you never actually have a "heir" meaning disinherit is always grey'd) forcing you to use the unreliable "Make him a general" method to be rid of bad rulers. Of course, I've never had a ruler under the age of 30 although, so usually even the worst aren't going to harass you forever. My Mamluks--> Arabia game has been one of the few games where I willingly took expansion over exploration (since I had a bunch of landlocked provinces to colonise and needed a colonist) because I was drowning in paper mana. That never happens to me. Never,

 

[Zephyrum]

Yeah, +2 to any MP is absolutely massive. It converts to essentially +17.14 admin per year in total. On the long run (377 years), that's ~6500 worth of admin points you otherwise wouldn't get. ~11 technologies or ~16 ideas worth of points!