Reforming Church of Zun since Horselords

[Dahoota]

Has anyone managed to do it? If so, how?

I've reached a point now where after some struggling I would be able to reform Zunism, except 4-5k cavalry stacks keep coming south and raiding me, reducing my moral authority. There's nothing I can do about it without exposing myself to attack from strong muslims and hindus around me.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

I played as Zorastrians. I would swear fealty to the Caliphate and work from there.

Broke off as King of Persia only to swear fealty again to the (then) still powerful Sunni Caliphate.

In council if you are King Level you are generally considered a powerful vassal. Faction for council power/overthrow continuously until he gives you council position.

Should prevent him from revoking land. In the meantime fabricate and use favors to either invite claimants or force bethorals on other vassals, which will turn into claims upon their death.

Once strong enough (I left at Empire of Persia size) faction for independence, outright Arabian Empire, or declare freedom after a decadence revolt.

I found attempting holy wars in that region with the Caliphate, Nomads, and Subcontinent surrounding you is just too dangerous.

 

[Dahoota]

The problem though has been keeping my moral authority high. I kept my chancellor camped out in the Abbasid capital all game and haven't had any conflict with them all game. The Indian Kingdoms have been fighting themselves, with careful picking of targets I can fight them easily enough - just don't fight anyone with enough piety to summon a holy order.

The tough part is moral authority, I need to get it to 50% to reform the religion:

• Zunists only have the conquest CB for +1% MA for 20 years.
• Only 3 holy sites are practically reachable - I won't be getting Bagdad or Cairo any time soon. Even tougher with only single county CBs.
  
• Being raided by large nomad stacks - at the highest I was able to reach 44% MA with -6% from raiding, then it started fading quickly as my earlier conquests trailed off.

 

[Gorgonkain]

I literally just did it as the Uygurs (nomads). I don't know if you were looking to do it as the Zubils', but as a nomad it is a cake-walk. Even if they shift to Sunni in the first few years, some of their mayors and priests will remain Zunists.

 

[Dahoota]

Yeah I'm doing it as the Zunbils. Playing as a nomad would certainly make it a lot easier - being able to raid would make life so easy.

 

[Surimi]

Easiest way I've found (from Zunbil start) is to culture switch to Khitan. This relies on you being able to fabricate claims in Khotan quickly and get to the two Khitan counties in the game before they're swallowed up by nomads, but not only is Khotan an excellent staging ground (relatively safe from strong Muslim nations, can swear fealty to a horde in an emergency, incredibly rich due to position on the silk road) but being Khitan culture and pagan religion gives you access to the invasion CB allowing for really fast expansion when the time comes.

Also, you can raid.. not that you will need to, the silk road provides.

 

[alscon]

Did it as the Zunbils, staying Afghan. You must try to have as many targets for county-conquests as possible, so take Kalat before the Caliph does, then proceed to eat the other Afghans. Usurp the Kabulistan title, making more counties ripe for conquest. Target the Karkota, expand into India. Wihout the Caliph's protection, go after the Taid - I had the luck that they broke apart and gave me more sheikhs to gobble up. Keep the Khivans strong, so that they don't fall under a horde, defend against the inevitable holy war of the Taids or Caliphate thanks to your Zunist provinces. Sindh likely has split up into a multitude of small thakurs now, so continue the conquests.
If Khiva is still intact, you should have no problems with raiders. if you need more MA, you might want to conquer your way into the Tarim basin, where easy conquest awaits. Perhaps use a mercenary force as standing army.

I might have had some luck thanks to that splintering and encountering little-piety thakurs, but it's still possible. And if you have money to burn, you can build temples. But with culture-conversion to raid or swearing fealty, it should be easier.

 

[StarSword]

Also, the wiki says that Zunists can make marriage alliances with Indians, which, if true, means there's a few large-ish blobs you can now ally to nearby to offset the Caliphate.

 

[Dahoota]

Hmmm, seems like perhaps I've just gotten a bit unlucky - the Abbasids and Taids are still whole In my game (I am still taking counties from the Taids though) + others don't seem to have the same issues with large raiding armies.

 

[Greybeard0815]

Also, the wiki says that Zunists can make marriage alliances with Indians, which, if true, means there's a few large-ish blobs you can now ally to nearby to offset the Caliphate.

I'm not sure if the "intermarry" part in the religions truly works. I occasionally got offers, but whenever I try to arrange some marriage myself, I still get the "will not accept offers from Infidels" modifier.

 

[Dahoota]

I'm not sure if the "intermarry" part in the religions truly works. I occasionally got offers, but whenever I try to arrange some marriage myself, I still get the "will not accept offers from Infidels" modifier.

I've be able to marry away daughters to Khans, but sometimes not get their daughters.

What I have noticed as well is that none of my family members who I've landed are getting married. I assume because they can't find any Zunist brides of suitable rank?

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

I personally have not played as Zunists yet, but as Ultimogeniture Zorastrians it is a very similiar start.

I honestly prefer the eat from within strategy as that also solves your raiding problem....somewhat. I was not raided much of anything in Northern Persia, and if I was it was driven off by my liege.

As for getting marriages to relatives you can spawn characters with intrigue, or in my case make concubines and then set them aside immediately, putting them in my court for marriages to whoever I want.

 

[mrinku]

I did my great Zunist game before I bought Horse Lords, but had to put up with a bug (since fixed) that didn't give you any MA from building temples.

The "alliance with Dharmic" thing was the key for me. What you need to realise though is that Hindus will only marry within caste, and only the lower caste passes to children, so you pretty much need to convert, do the "change caste" intrigue thing and convert back (or at least have *someone* you control do it). Marrying your kids into Hindu dynasties can result in your dynasty ending up in charge, and with high caste due to that path, or possibly other events. Otherwise, once you have some high caste people, convert them and breed them.

Your BEST bet is to align with the Buddhists, who don't care about all that (The Jain rarely have any power). I locked down the Himalayan ones in marriage pacts for ages.

Don't discount going for one or both of the far-off holy sites, either. You can fabricate a claim from anywhere, and once you get down to the sea you can ship troops there pretty easily during a moment when the Muslims are fighting each other. I ended up having to take Heliopolis in order to reform because of the temple bug at the time. I should note this was fairly late, too - I was able to build up to a strong empire while still unreformed.

 

[mrinku]

I personally have not played as Zunists yet, but as Ultimogeniture Zorastrians it is a very similiar start.

Not so similar - The Afghan duchy is well placed geographically to quickly form a decent mono-culture kingdom with good expansion, and their defensive attrition usually keeps the Muslims off their back for a while. All the feudal Zoros are already under Muslim rule, and the nomads play *very* differently (note that Zunbil starts feudal). In addition, Zoro starts as a proper religion, while Zun is unreformed and vulnerable to conversion. That makes a HUGE difference.

(Of course one of those differences is the constant *ka-ching* of missionary ransoms...)

Zun also get the Pagan "I can declare war if it's next door" Casus Belli, and the short (5 year) truce thing.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Hmmm, I meant that in the form of hostile religions and inability to really marry anyone else, but I see your points.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Have a game ongoing at the moment trying to do the same thing. I'm seeing the same problem with building MA (thankyou @mrinku for giving me the idea to fabricate a claim on somewhere far off). I haven't really had any problems from the khans but I've mostly been allied with them and fighting mutual enemies so maybe that's allowed me to avoid it.

 

[mrinku]

Hmmm, I meant that in the form of hostile religions and inability to really marry anyone else, but I see your points.

Fair enough, although Zunbil is able to marry the Dharmics, and even get proper mutual marriage arrangements with the Buddhists.