Reformation

[6354201]

Playing as Novgorod with the second to last beta patch, I had the province of Novgorod flip from Orthodox to Protestant during the reformation.

Has this always been possible? If so it should be changed. The reformation was a reaction against Catholicism, not Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[unmerged(199227)]

Seems feasible that if they were a battered nation by the hands of an Orthodox Muscovy, and allied or guaranteed independence by a strong non-orthodox neighbor, that a nation could shift it's religious views as a whole towards the friendlier, more 'humane' side.

I know that's not how the games sees it, but if you can force convert and have it stick, I don't know why you can't 'nice' convert.

Now someone is going to post on why this idea is terrible for some historical reason and it's going to piss me off because that's non sequitur so I suggest you ignore them.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Playing as Novgorod with the second to last beta patch, I had the province of Novgorod flip from Orthodox to Protestant during the reformation.

Has this always been possible? If so it should be changed. The reformation was a reaction against Catholicism, not Eastern Orthodoxy.

If you look in the events section there is a possibility for this to happen, and also towards Reformed.

Think of it this way: The Protestant and Reformed branches of Christianity are partially responses to the corruption of the Catholic Church, partially an attempt to simplify all the ceremony in the mass. It is possible that what has happened there is that a protestant group have accused the Orthodox church of the same problems as Catholicism, and they certainly would look to attack the iconophile nature of Orthodoxy.

 

[unmerged(84079)]

Seems feasible that if they were a battered nation by the hands of an Orthodox Muscovy, and allied or guaranteed independence by a strong non-orthodox neighbor, that a nation could shift it's religious views as a whole towards the friendlier, more 'humane' side.

I don't want to critisise your idea at all, but saying orthodox is a less friendly/humane religion might be a bit... inflammatory. And I don't mind so long as prot/catholic/reformed states can go orthodox.

 

[I am.]

Seems feasible that if they were a battered nation by the hands of an Orthodox Muscovy, and allied or guaranteed independence by a strong non-orthodox neighbor, that a nation could shift it's religious views as a whole towards the friendlier, more 'humane' side.

I know that's not how the games sees it, but if you can force convert and have it stick, I don't know why you can't 'nice' convert.

Now someone is going to post on why this idea is terrible for some historical reason and it's going to piss me off because that's non sequitur so I suggest you ignore them.

It still would not explain Byzantium owning half of Europe to have its Orthodox religion provinces go reformed...
And please do not talk about a more humane side, there was only one side burning witches and scientists

 

[Beamed]

Since, abstractedly, religion only represents the majority in a province, it stands to reason that the catholics converted to reformed or somesuch, and managed to proselytize sufficiently as to spread their own religion amongst the orthodox majority, turning it minority.

 

[6354201]

All the scenarios presented thus far are reasonable, but it doesn't change the fact that the Protestant reformation was a direct reaction against the Catholic Church, not the Orthodox Church. The game shouldn't treat these provinces as eligible to receive the effects of the reformation.

I'm not against some unique events that result in the conversion of an Orthodox province to a different branch of Christianity, but those events would be just that, unique, and not part of the reformation.

To me this is also a matter of historical plausibility. EU is of course not about historical events and dates, but it is about maintaining a certain degree of plausibility in the events that happen in game. The reformation can happen in a bunch of different ways, but it's triggering conditions and spreading conditions are still realistic in that nothing truly crazy is happening, like Muslim provinces switching over.

 

[Barsoom]

I don't want to critisise your idea at all, but saying orthodox is a less friendly/humane religion might be a bit... inflammatory. And I don't mind so long as prot/catholic/reformed states can go orthodox.

I don't think he was saying that. I read "friendly / humane" as a contrast to the big, oppresive neighbour, not to its particular theology.

 

[unmerged(199227)]

It still would not explain Byzantium owning half of Europe to have its Orthodox religion provinces go reformed...
And please do not talk about a more humane side, there was only one side burning witches and scientists

Huh? I'm just talking about perceptions. If a dominant culture treats it's vassal well, there's a good chance that the vassal's religion would adapt to it's overlord's, IMO if the original religion of the country has neighbors of that type that are treating said country abusively, it would make that abusive country's belief system (possibly) less appealing.

It's a small measure of suspending belief to adapt to an amorphous game

I guarantee you I have no vested interest in any of the world's religions.

 

[unmerged(199227)]

All the scenarios presented thus far are reasonable, but it doesn't change the fact that the Protestant reformation was a direct reaction against the Catholic Church.

Absolutely, I'm just adding a hypothetical situation for a possible OPM in the bordering ortho/cath regions to be somewhat flexible by means of neighbor relations.

 

[Zander]

FYI, unlike Catholic provinces, Orthodox provinces will only convert to Protestant/Reformed if they are adjacent to a Protestant/Reformed province already.

 

[I am.]

FYI, unlike Catholic provinces, Orthodox provinces will only convert to Protestant/Reformed if they are adjacent to a Protestant/Reformed province already.

Yeah, but it happens at a very alarming rate IMHO...
why not have it the other way around then, catholic/protestant/reformed provinces converting to orthodox?

 

[Beamed]

All the scenarios presented thus far are reasonable, but it doesn't change the fact that the Protestant reformation was a direct reaction against the Catholic Church, not the Orthodox Church. The game shouldn't treat these provinces as eligible to receive the effects of the reformation.

I'm not against some unique events that result in the conversion of an Orthodox province to a different branch of Christianity, but those events would be just that, unique, and not part of the reformation.

Hm.

Agreed.

 

[lordkestrel]

Yeah, but it happens at a very alarming rate IMHO...
why not have it the other way around then, catholic/protestant/reformed provinces converting to orthodox?

It's pretty easy to add, just re-use the existing code that converts them to reformed and have it convert them to orthodox. It makes just as much sense, so I don't see any issue with adding it.

 

[unmerged(139223)]

I agree completely with 6354201 and want to remove this in my next game. Which would be the best way to do so? I read somewhere that you can't remove some events because the game "expects them to be there" (the events are 2003 and 2013. edit: in IN 3.2).

 

[Trin Tragula]

All the scenarios presented thus far are reasonable, but it doesn't change the fact that the Protestant reformation was a direct reaction against the Catholic Church, not the Orthodox Church. The game shouldn't treat these provinces as eligible to receive the effects of the reformation..

The province probably isn't 100% orthodox though. Perhaps a whole bunch of protestants fleed from a catholic country and moved to your province due to you not distinguishing between catholics and protestants? They could along with a minority of catholics that converts be enough to switch province majority.
Such movements did occur on a large scale (for instance at one time Berlin is said to have been 2/3 french due to the large influx of french protestants).

 

[HanSime]

FYI, unlike Catholic provinces, Orthodox provinces will only convert to Protestant/Reformed if they are adjacent to a Protestant/Reformed province already.

This is not true actually, I've been playing a 3.2 Byz game where I hold the middle east bordering India and now and then isolated provinces (even in the 1700s) in Iraq, Persia, Qatar or Beirut go catholic, protestant OR reformed, as long as they are Orthodox.

The reason it flips is religious tolerance. I'm all innovative and got NIs for tolerance of heretics. Basically, if you're not narrowminded enough, random provinces can flip. And indeed at an alarming rate I might add. Often multiple provinces per year.


On the topic, I would personally say conversion to catholicism wouldn't be odd, as Catholics under many popes have always tried to get a foothold in Orthodox territory and relations wern't always too great between popes and patriarches. Protestants and Reformed? Not so much. I'd say this should go a bit like Westernization - first only Catholic conversion, only then a chance of reformed/protestant (unless zealots come over for tea and biscuits).