Reform existing Religion, if you are a Religious Icon (for very high Piety cost)

[helveticadomes]

It should be possible for a Religious Icon with more or equal Virtues than Sin to change some Religious things.

Additionally to being a Religious Icon (highest piety rank) i also would add one of these to the requirements as condition:

• hold 3 holy sites
• own more than 50% of the countries that follow that faith
• have a strong hock on the head of faith or be it itself (if one exist)

you are basically a Saint that everyone would hear of/ listen to, why should you not be able to use this?

Then you should be able to choose one:

• Exchange one Tenet for the cost of 10-20K Piety (20-40 Years till change is done)
  cost and time depends on how good the tenet is rated by paradox
• Exchange one-three Doctrines each for the cost of 6-12K Piety (10-20 Years till change is done)
  cost and time depends on how far away from current they are
• If your faith don't own a holy site Exchange one to your capital for 25K piety
  prefers a holy site, longest not hold by your faith, if there are more then one, choose the one with farthest border to your faith
• If your faith didn't hold a specific holy site for more than 150 years, it could be replaced for 30K piety
  new holy site will be chosen from a county that faith own longest, has high development and is not close to an existing one

next 50 years faith cant be reformed (like it is a cultures now)

this should be a only once in a Lifetime decision, or depends on the general cool-down of 50 year of the faith

yes it could/should cost more to reform a faith, then to create a new one, but the gain of a big empire is not to spread the faith again.

e.g. for a clothe less pope:
you need at least 150 years, 3 Generations of saint characters. (and 75K piety)
30K piety to change first 3 doctrines with first char,
30K piety to change second 3 doctrines wit second char,
15K to change a tenet with 3 char.
if this worth all? probably not. but you can.
to see how it look like, it is easier to steal/gain the pope crown, and wear it as a clothe less male char

e.g. for single doctrine change to accepted witchcraft as orthodox it would be "only" 12k piety

 

[Dayvit78]

The reason I like this idea is that once you reform your religion, there's really nothing to do with piety anymore. it doesn't make sense to keep reforming your religion and then having to reconvert every province.
Religion should be a living thing just like culture - it is in real life, and it makes sense from a gameplay perspective to give you piety sinks.

 

[Blk82]

Faiths do not work that way. Historically, there was some development over the centuries. But, most of this was done by a slow creep of tradition, not by somebody proclaiming some new doctrine. For example, in Catholicism, cousin marriage was strongly discouraged in the early medieval period, but became more acceptable and even the norm among royalty during the Renaissance and early modern period. Likewise, Catholicism dismissed witchcraft as a peasant's superstition until about the 14th century.

The closest real-life analog would be the theological conflicts of late antiquity and the early middle ages in the Roman/Byzantine empire. In most cases, the East Roman Emperors were unable to force their views on the church, and that was in matters of theological controversies, in which educated theologians could disagree. If the East Roman Emperor decided to openly violate a scripture and doctrine and legalized brother-sister marriage, he would be deposed in short order.

An organized faith has fixed doctrines, as the function of church is to teach what is has been handed down by scripture (or tradition), not make stuff up. Likewise, it is not the business of secular rulers to determine what is to be believed and taught, that is the function of bishops and theologians. In fact, that is why the church exists in the first place.

Even when doing a pagan reformation, nobody outside your realm converts with you. Instead, your former co-religionists become "Old Pagans." Even you do change the official doctrine, there is no reason for everyone else to accept your changes. I would even go so far as to say that the current heresy mechanic is fairly generous, as only characters with the 'zealous' trait actually care about their faith. If you could change a religion's doctrines, it should spawn and "Old Catholic" like with the pagan reformations. But, since you suggesting multiple doctrine changes, that would create multiple branches of 'Old Catholicism." Rather than have "Old Catholic." "Older Catholic." "New Old Catholic" and "Old Old Catholic" faiths arising, it would make more sense for the player heresy to have a new name, rather than generating multiple remnant faiths due to doctrine changes.

 

[klopkr]

I don't think any character should be able to do it but Heads of Faith definitely should be able to reform the religion and change the tenets and laws.

This would have to come with a game rule for the AI to only make historical adjustments if there are any or go wild.

 

[helveticadomes]

it is not the business of secular rulers to determine what is to be believed and taught, that is the function of bishops and theologians

good point, maybe we should add Theologian to the requirements too & double the cost (because of the 50% Reform-Reduction from Prophet)
maybe also add Court Chaplain need to perform a new action called "reform faith" to progress the reform

Even when doing a pagan reformation, nobody outside your realm converts with you.

Thats why i say you need to control more than 50% of the faith territory, or most of the holy sites, or be head of faith (or at least have power over him)

and for the piety we speak about you can easily form you own faith, even if you change to opposite doctrines and change every tenet to the most costly ones you need less piety at full cost! (without Prophet and Erudition reduction),
with reduction you don't need to be a religious icon(8.5K piety), depends on what you change it is about max 6K piety to form the new religion.
i speak about minimum the same price to change a single doctrine!

that means beside from "flavor" not play with a "custom" faith you gain nothing special.
and if you are able to gain that much piety and have more than 50% of faiths territory there is anyway not much against you

But, most of this was done by a slow creep of tradition

it can be discussed if it is too fast, and double the time
also we can discuss to forbid going from Criminal>Accepted direct, and instead you have to go Criminal>Shunned>Accepted.

that would create multiple branches of 'Old Catholicism."

i find it would be ok that every Zealous char has a chance to stay with unmodified faith (150% - opinion = chance to stay)
and that they create a "new old faith" (Naming it should be a player decision, if he would like Reformed Faith and Faith OR Faith and Old Faith OR Faith and Original Faith), and i would not create a other or multiple branches for a second Reforming or multiple doctrines changes

 

[helveticadomes]

Because of an event that happens to me yesterday and a bug report about same Apocrypha event i decide to bring up this again.

Just in case someone will claim all doctrines are how they are.
Apocrypha core event that change doctrines already exist => at least for catholic, and orthodox (maybe all christianity faiths)

There is a Theology Lifestyle Event that allows you to challenge your head of faith to modify a doctrine of your religion.
In the game files it's called "learning_theology_special.1001" / "Apocrypha" / "Find old text".

and instead of mine, these are instantly, cost nothing, had no requirements, create no branches
(just require a "little luck" to win the % battle against pope/bishop)

therefore: why should i not be able to do / initiate same (or something similar) as a player