• Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

RadRussian

Lt. General
47 Badges
Aug 14, 2013
1.305
270
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
I've completed a Hansa->Germany game, started in 1.6.0 and mostly done in 1.6.1 and want to discuss what people think about (income) balance in 1.6
I wasn't really active in Europe's affairs so AI was left to itself.
Here's a screenshot of income in 1700



Spain is making 130 ducats and Russia with France make 110 each! I expected them to make at least twice that.
So I inspect each country and find out that they do not build anything in their provinces.
If they do, they always go for Production buildings.

Now, the colonies were poor in pre-1.6 but with a nerf to production income, they are pretty much useless unless you establish them early and they get to build ultimate buildings. I entered colonization late so I found a few CNs and when I started feeding them, I realized that AI is incapable to deal with nationalism revolt risk. It's not a problem for me to put an army in the new world but even after they cored the land, it's not productive for decades and revolts go one after another.
So I think that CNs and colonization are now a waste of idea group.

Fast forward 100 years, 1800.



(France inherited Portugal and North Africa + it's CNs)

Still the AI is barely hanging on to what they have and prefer to expand rather than build buildings which makes them less competitive and interesting to play.



I checked the Ottomans and Russia and in every province they have either Temple and Earth Rampant, or Constable and Earth Rampant or all three. Ottomans didn't even build high-level buildings in Anatolia. They are not viable and can barely afford their force limit. The AI should build alot more rather than expand.

The Trade

Most of additions to trade I like, some I don't.
I like to have 15 merchants so I can steer/collect pretty much everywhere specially in synergy with Light ships/Trade company naval force limit.
Special Trade buildings do not provide Trade Value, just Trade Power. I don't see a purpose in building them as Light ships are way more efficient.
I'm generally in favor of a nerf to production but it also nerfs the trade value due to low goods produced.

This is a screen of Western European trade node in 1800!



IIRC, the average trade in the node was 130-170 ducats and now it's 11. Again, the CNs give a tiny amount of trade for reasons above.

And here's a screen of my trade income.



The values of most nodes are way lower than in 1.5 with Bengal being an exception but it built there alot.

MY thoughts are that it's an excellent expansion that just needs a few tweaks: buff trade by making it less dependent on goods produced so CNs are not a waste of pixels, make AI prioritize on building buildings rather than mindlessly blob and that will be the best version of the game to date.
 
Last edited:

icedlemon

Second Lieutenant
74 Badges
Dec 14, 2011
143
11
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities in Motion
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • 500k Club
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
1. big AI nations are always unable to build more buildings, i guess it is because they recruit crazy amount of Mercenary and go into war constantly, and the inefficient usage of MP, from my own observation most german minors would have more buldings done if they were kept small.

2. about the production, in the game it is the trade value which determines the production value, not the other way around. The increase of production efficiency wont increase the trade value, it was and is just a flat bonus on the production income. Amount of goods produced and their price is the ultimate source of both the trade value and production value. And on that i dont remember any nerf to good produced, rather a large buff, with all the production efficiency ideas moves to goods produced.
 
Last edited:

Korashy

Field Marshal
77 Badges
Jul 15, 2012
4.225
3.681
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
I like that the AI is a lot more active now. In your screenshot Ottoman for example is actually in Europe. In my current Najd game, all the colonizers are actually colonizing, creating a lot of friction between them. England hasn't expanded a single provinces by 1630, probably because France has mega Poland, Castile, Portugal, Scottland and some other people as allies. Not really sure how they manage to ally so many GP's.
 

josh127

Field Marshal
23 Badges
Aug 13, 2013
2.814
838
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
I like the idea to nerf income, but it went too far. AI should be building buildings and should be fielding full sized armies. I'm not seeing that. I haven't seen it in my games because I play slower than a lot of people (and the fact I keep changing who I want to play doesn't help), but when I see the blobby nations like how far Russia pushed into Europe, and to some extent France's blobbing through Spain (Some exception here for the PU over Portugal) I can't help but wonder if part of the issue was Spain couldn't afford emergency units. If that's the case, the Iberians in their homeland will become easy prey mid game every game since they have to protect such an expanded region.

Granted, nothing wrong with being able to destroy Iberians, but I don't need a return of the BBB.

I won't rule out that what I've seen might not be typical of all games though, and it's just theory that the blobbiness is economy related.


Also, OP, it's a good write-up.
 

RadRussian

Lt. General
47 Badges
Aug 14, 2013
1.305
270
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
2. about the production, in the game it is the trade value which determines the production value, not the other way around. The increase of production efficiency wont increase the trade value, it was and is just a flat bonus on the production income. Amount of goods produced and their price is the ultimate source of both the trade value and production value. And on that i dont remember any nerf to good produced, rather a large buff, with all the production efficiency ideas moves to goods produced.
Yes, Trade Value is determined by Goods Produced, which is determined mostly by Production Buildings and manufacturies.
I did not argue that Production income should be buffed but instead for trade income there should be another bonus to Trade Value, like +1 for the last trade special building.

Does anyone want to refute my claim (based on empirical data but still) that CNs are not worth it now?

Amerika and Heersegruppe Nord were my earliest colonies when I unlocked Exploration in 1500s and I always chose to tariff them when it was available but they provide a laughable income. I look at religion map and they 20-30% of their provinces unconverted provinces with unacceptable culture which generate revolt risk which generate more revolts in a positive feedback loop so their economic development is impossible.

 

brifbates

Field Marshal
79 Badges
Mar 4, 2004
10.388
1.589
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
I haven't looked at colonial nations yet since my first games were Muscovy and Bavaria, I'll know more soon since I'm playing England (still very early on).

On the ai building front, part of their reluctance to build much is due to the mp costs, just like players, unless you are swimming in mps buildings are sub-optimal use of your mps. With the added vassal-annexation costs plus higher need for harsh treatment the ais may well be running short on mps (especially true if you aren't playing with lucky nations). I know in my Muscovy game France was building plenty of low level buildings (I was curious about how we had similar manpower limits so I looked).
 

RadRussian

Lt. General
47 Badges
Aug 14, 2013
1.305
270
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Me too, I just wish it favored Europe less.
Yes, that is a part of problem. European AI can sustain an army, but the new world nations will be way behind in terms of production/manpower and tax income. There was a bug (or WAD, I dunno) pre-1.6 where if you colonize a province in the new world and you save all inhabitants but you don't get promised increase to manpower.
It just makes the situation worse... or more challenging. I think might do another Sunset Invasion with Zapotec or Maya but I have a gut feeling it will tougher this time around.

Aside, I found a way Merchant Republics can be abused. You vassalize merchant republic, sell it provinces you want it to trade in and you have +0.33 to all goods produced in all of your nodes.
 
Last edited:

RadRussian

Lt. General
47 Badges
Aug 14, 2013
1.305
270
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
to me, "mostly done in 1.6.1" invalidates any of your data
I started the game in 1.6.0 but got bored in 50 years because of coalitions. I continued it in 1.6.1 when patch came out.
 

mursolini

Field Marshal
13 Badges
Feb 1, 2014
2.783
2.170
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II
Well, in my current fully 1.6.1. Castille->Spain game, I have to say that money is very tight, I barely build builings.
I also don`t colonise Americas, I wend for trip around Africa, curently owning Moroco, and Algeria is my vassal, also most of Central Africa states are my protectorates, it is 1549, I`m earning ~55/month.
 

cwg9

Colonel
102 Badges
Jan 25, 2008
1.186
16
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
This is an interesting thread. Personally I like the tighter economy in Europe, but I am concerned to hear that the AI is not constructing buildings as they seem pretty important to a healthy economy now. I haven't gotten a good feel for what the economy is like in the ROTW yet.
 

brifbates

Field Marshal
79 Badges
Mar 4, 2004
10.388
1.589
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
Moving along... Trying to go reformed as England and it's getting ugly... Rebels drained a lot of my manpower during the 15 year wait after Protestantism hit, My economy is horrible and, of course, the random conversions are all hitting the crappy low value provinces so I have to do the expensive ones with my 1 lonely missionary (greatly contributes to the tanked economy). I think my biggest problem this game was the initial idiot lived for ~40 years so I'm way behind in everything-no buildings, my troops take more damage against the rebels (low tech, no ideas), lower manpower pool, couldn't culture convert everything, and so forth.

It's definitely a bumpy ride but that's better than the game being over by 1535...
 

Outrider

General
1 Badges
Sep 8, 2013
2.067
376
Does anyone want to refute my claim (based on empirical data but still) that CNs are not worth it now?
Depends on the CN. It actually looks like the Caribbean is more valuable now.

And worth what? The gold cost? The opportunity cost of taking Exploration/Expansion instead of a different idea? The MP to fill the idea groups?

I think its all of the above, but we need a bit more clarification of the cost-benefit comparison you're making.
 

BBBD316

Field Marshal
102 Badges
Jul 6, 2007
3.585
1.395
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
Well I can say that as my first 1.6.1 I went the OE and fell so far behind because I vassal feed that it was impossible to build any trade buildings. My vassals didn't build any real buildings either.

I went through westernisation as my diplo was that far behind I thought why not, but my income was around -5 to 36 dependant on how much of my army I kept around. I have always found the numbers behind the trade in EU too hard to worry about, so I am probably just a noob.
 

Myrten

Lt. General
115 Badges
Jun 26, 2004
1.617
553
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Iron Cross
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Empire of Sin
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Yes, Trade Value is determined by Goods Produced, which is determined mostly by Production Buildings and manufacturies.
I did not argue that Production income should be buffed but instead for trade income there should be another bonus to Trade Value, like +1 for the last trade special building.

Does anyone want to refute my claim (based on empirical data but still) that CNs are not worth it now?

Amerika and Heersegruppe Nord were my earliest colonies when I unlocked Exploration in 1500s and I always chose to tariff them when it was available but they provide a laughable income. I look at religion map and they 20-30% of their provinces unconverted provinces with unacceptable culture which generate revolt risk which generate more revolts in a positive feedback loop so their economic development is impossible.
You are doing it wrong, why are you collecting trade in Bengal???

Here's my Portugal->Spain 1.6.1 game with ~2k Income, not perfect but it went quite well.


I didn't have CNs besides Brazil, Caribbean and La Plata, I'd say Brazil and La Plata were a mistake, I should go for Carribean -> Mexico and California because trade from North-West America can be redirected to Japan, it's only valid late-game role of CN. Earlier they may give you some cash before you can get trade from Asia.

I don't get the point of buffing trade buildings, if you want more trade value then go for production. I've maxed production buildings in my Chinese colonies and it ended up working quite well.
 
Last edited:

InceptionofwaR

Private
1 Badges
Sep 4, 2013
20
0
Moving along... Trying to go reformed as England and it's getting ugly... Rebels drained a lot of my manpower during the 15 year wait after Protestantism hit, My economy is horrible and, of course, the random conversions are all hitting the crappy low value provinces so I have to do the expensive ones with my 1 lonely missionary (greatly contributes to the tanked economy). I think my biggest problem this game was the initial idiot lived for ~40 years so I'm way behind in everything-no buildings, my troops take more damage against the rebels (low tech, no ideas), lower manpower pool, couldn't culture convert everything, and so forth.

It's definitely a bumpy ride but that's better than the game being over by 1535...
My England start was rocky as well. My economy eventually got rolling through tariffs and trade though, it's the early 1700s and I'm making 60-70 a month. My manpower is still garbage though. I haven't even bothered with mainland Europe. I'm just focusing on bullying primitives and using my big ass navy to deal with any major powers that I end up at war with.
 

RadRussian

Lt. General
47 Badges
Aug 14, 2013
1.305
270
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
You are doing it wrong, why are you collecting trade in Bengal???

Here's my Portugal->Spain 1.6.1 game with ~2k Income, not perfect but it went quite well.


I didn't have CNs besides Brazil, Caribbean and La Plata, I'd say Brazil and La Plata were a mistake, I should go for Carribean -> Mexico and California because trade from North-West America can be redirected to Japan, it's only valid late-game role of CN. Earlier they may give you some cash before you can get trade from Asia.

I don't get the point of buffing trade buildings, if you want more trade value then go for production. I've maxed production buildings in my Chinese colonies and it ended up working quite well.
From the screenshot it looks like you can steer trade directly to Sevilla all the way from Indo-China across Africa but I don't have many provinces in Indus so I can't push it to Zanzibar efficiently. I try not to go over 100 overextension.
The intention of my thread was not to measure who has bigger trade income but to argue whether
a) special trade buildings worth it
b) CNs don't give much trade due to low production, hence they are useless
c) AI doesn't usually build buildings so their economy cannot afford large armies/mercs, hence weak competitor

I actually agree with you that one must build production buildings to compensate low initial trade value because without it... well, total trade value in Caribbean is 20, 9 in Mississippi and 10 in Chesapeake, 5 in Siam, 9 in Canton which is less than satisfactory.
How did you manage to crank up tariff income to 50 ducats though?