Redesigning HoI3 map

[unmerged(101730)]

As stated in other threads, my first modding for HoI3 (... before I even play the game, probably) will be making a map where all the 10000 provinces are spread out evenly over ther globe, Antarctica excluded.

The problem is in designing all those provinces - it takes time and patience to go through all the countries, lands and regions and decide what should be split where. Thankfully, an even spread of 10000 provinces means that the western and central Europe get about the same amount they have now - so I can just take the HoI2 map and adapt it directly.

So, let's start elsewhere, namely with everyone's favourite minor:

Tannu Tuva

For those not aware, Tannu Tuva (currently the Tyva autonomous republic within the Russian Federation) was a small-ish landlocked country between Russian Siberia and Mongolia. Well, "small" is relative - the total land area is about 170 thousands km², which places it squarely in the middle between Greece and Romania. For the US guys and girls in here: that's slightly smaller than the US state of Washington. This size means it's province count should be 13, give or take a few.

The area is covered mostly in low mountains, with some steppe on the border to Mongolia in the south, salty swamps in the Lake Uvs basin in the same general area, a ton of small lakes and swamps among vast forests in the north-eastern corner, and two main rivers (Yenisei and Khemchik) acting as the country's lifelines . Among those river's valleys lie the fertile, if arid lowlands ("low" being relative - the lowest point of the country lies some 600m above the sea level) and hilly regions of central Tuva.

Now ... enough talk. Let's show you a map.

14 provinces, as it should be. Mountainous areas should have more provinces than boring flatlands anyway. The dark grey areas are mountains (the highest being Mount Mongun-Tayga at 3970m; the highest peak in Siberia), which clearly dominate the country. Swamps, salt swamps and generally "wet" areas are in pale blue, the steppe in yellow-ish, and the lowlands and small hills in light green. The places inbetween are (generally pretty hilly and mountainous) transition zones.

 

[CatalanNation]

Tannu Tuva... 14 provinces? Just?

 

[Kriegsspieler]

Hmmm...
Don't know if you're serious, but making a map of this sort would seriously affect other aspects of the game, such as how combat works.

 

[unmerged(101730)]

Hmmm...
Don't know if you're serious, but making a map of this sort would seriously affect other aspects of the game, such as how combat works.

I am serious. And of course it will affect the combat - namely, it will make it work consistently across the globe, no matter if you're fighting in France, in the Amazonian jungle, or trying to conquer Irkutsk.

 

[Kriegsspieler]

I am serious. And of course it will affect the combat - namely, it will make it work consistently across the globe, no matter if you're fighting in France, in the Amazonian jungle, or trying to conquer Irkutsk.

Why would consistency of that sort be desirable? They're very different sorts of places and combat in them would go according to different circumstances.
But hey -- who am I to criticize? That's what mods are all about!

 

[OHgamer]

You've got the right idea, developing your new map design now. Should make it *relatively* easy to go into actually developing it once the game is finally released.

Although 14 provinces for Tannu Tuva is likely too many. 10K land provinces sounds like alot, but you'll be surprised how fast you'll likely burn through them based on a 14-province Tannu. Unless of course you are making Tannu Tuva a special case of more provinces for area than other similar nations of its size and technological capability. And of course there is always the issue of will these provinces be big enough to contain the various graphic elements, units above all, in them.

And of course that is assuming 10K land is some sort of upper limit, which may not be the case at all given the much greater flexibility of the map in EU3-engine based games.

Still, making preparations with a revised map layout for a map mod is definitely not a bad idea, considering the long process of developing a map layout in the first place (having worked on the Clio map project for Victoria for over 2 years now, it took close to a year to get the basic land provinces worked out, and there's still a few revisions being planned).

 

[unmerged(101730)]

Why would consistency of that sort be desirable? They're very different sorts of places and combat in them would go according to different circumstances.

Simply because the province distribution is a type of space partitioning, and an uniform partitioning ensures that its negative impact on the simulation (in this case, of the geopolitical situation from 1936 on) is minimized - that is, when we can't use the finite element method, but this would require the game engine to support dynamically splitting and joining provinces as needed by the current game state.

Though I might be one of only a few people who care about the simulation side of the game.

 

[Kriegsspieler]

And of course that is assuming 10K land is some sort of upper limit, which may not be the case at all given the much greater flexibility of the map in EU3-engine based games..

My poor CPU!

Simply because the province distribution is a type of space partitioning, and an uniform partitioning ensures that its negative impact on the simulation (in this case, of the geopolitical situation from 1936 on) is minimized - that is, when we can't use the finite element method, but this would require the game engine to support dynamically splitting and joining provinces as needed by the current game state.

Though I might be one of only a few people who care about the simulation side of the game.

Well it depends greatly on what one values in the simulation, doesn't it. Province distribution is not just space partitioning, it's an effect designed for certain game-related ends, such as getting the right "feel" in armored campaigns in France and the USSR. OTOH, your system suggests orther possibilities, such as a different feel for naval warfare. I haven't seen the entire map myself, of course, so I'm only speculating.

 

[unmerged(58571)]

I have always been an advocate of minimum deviation of province size and -shape and would love to play with a map that allows warfare outside Europe.
We have a 148,940,000 km² land area split over 10,000 provinces = 14,894 km² per province; sqrt(14894) = 122.04097672503280977664 - that is, a province should be roughly 122 km across for land combat to work the same in Asia and Europe.

Your province count for Tannu Tuva is wrong according to these numbers; it should have roughly 11.44 provinces.

Have Paradox stated how many sea provinces are planned?

 

[unmerged(101730)]

I have always been an advocate of minimum deviation of province size and -shape and would love to play with a map that allows warfare outside Europe.
We have a 148,940,000 km² land area split over 10,000 provinces = 14,894 km² per province; sqrt(14894) = 122.04097672503280977664 - that is, a province should be roughly 122 km across for land combat to work the same in Asia and Europe.

Your province count for Tannu Tuva is wrong according to these numbers; it should have roughly 11.44 provinces.

I'm (explicitly) excluding Antarctica, so that's 135 million km², or 13500 km² per province. Tannu Tuva gets then 12.63 provinces (the one extra is ok, I can easily get that back in Siberia, Sahara, Greenland and so on, where one or two provinces less won't make a difference).

 

[unmerged(58571)]

Well it depends greatly on what one values in the simulation, doesn't it. Province distribution is not just space partitioning, it's an effect designed for certain game-related ends, such as getting the right "feel" in armored campaigns in France and the USSR. OTOH, your system suggests orther possibilities, such as a different feel for naval warfare. I haven't seen the entire map myself, of course, so I'm only speculating.

I shun playing Doomsday east of Volga, west of the Atlantic coastline or south of the Mediterranean because the provinces there are incompatible with the movement- and combat system and have no idea how anyone can stand playing a country like Japan; the one time I actually forced myself to play it into 1942, I found myself not going on the offensive because my enemies had nothing I wanted to conquer nor did I have anything I wanted to defend.

 

[OHgamer]

My poor CPU!.

Meh, if your system can handle all the day-to-day number crunching in Victoria VIP:R, I'll wager that is still more data crunching on a day-to-day basis for a CPU than what HoI3 would have hour-by-hour to calculate for each unit in existence.

 

[Kriegsspieler]

I shun playing Doomsday east of Volga, west of the Atlantic coastline or south of the Mediterranean because the provinces there are incompatible with the movement- and combat system and have no idea how anyone can stand playing a country like Japan; the one time I actually forced myself to play it into 1942, I found myself not going on the offensive because my enemies had nothing I wanted to conquer nor did I have anything I wanted to defend.

Tell me more about this. The provinces do get rather large in interior parts of the USSR, but isn't the campaign pretty much over by the time you arrive there? and as to Japan, a conventional player like me would want to push through China to get at its resources in the Southeast and in the vicinity of Shanghai/Guangzho, and the stuff in Indochina and Malaysia. Japan has few trading partners that don't force it to go across water somewhere, thus exposing their commerce to % losses from enemy naval activity.

Meh, if your system can handle all the day-to-day number crunching in Victoria VIP:R, I'll wager that is still more data crunching on a day-to-day basis for a CPU than what HoI3 would have hour-by-hour to calculate for each unit in existence.

No doubt about that. Victoria (in whatever guise, VIP or vanilla) is a processor hog of the finest kind. And running true to form, even in my newer computer it slows down significantly as one nears 1900.
But what I was referring to was the alarming suggestion that 10000 provinces is only a theoretical and possibly not a practical limit.

 

[unmerged(58571)]

and as to Japan, a conventional player like me would want to push through China to get at its resources in the Southeast and in the vicinity of Shanghai/Guangzho, and the stuff in Indochina and Malaysia.

A few hours of combat. Spend a month marching. Arrive at 0 org. Fight for 1 hour. Spend a month retreating.
Not really my idea of a fun campaign...

 

[Kriegsspieler]

A few hours of combat. Spend a month marching. Arrive at 0 org. Fight for 1 hour. Spend a month retreating.
Not really my idea of a fun campaign...

Yes, that's the problem with large, low infra provinces. We'll see if there's a solution forthcoming in this version of the game.

 

[unmerged(58571)]

Yes, that's the problem with large, low infra provinces. We'll see if there's a solution forthcoming in this version of the game.

There is: 10k land provinces and a fully redesignable map if the inconsistencies are still too horrible.

 

[Ithron]

great idea! though I think that mostly hoi3 vanilla map should be fine

 

[unmerged(101730)]

Next target: Oman and the UAE.

Oman is 2 provinces over the limit (25 out of 23); mostly due to the Masirah island and Musandam, though I don't think I should get rid of either. Probably I'll just merge some provinces in the middle. UAE is one province over the limit (7 out of 6) - I might have to skip the idea of making Abu Dhabi sitting on an island of its own. Though I like this idea, really. Kind of an Arabic Venice.

Yellow areas are sandy desert (the big one is Rub al Khali).

 

[unmerged(58571)]

Some of those provinces look rather oddly shaped...

 

[jelay14]

At first I thought the map featured in the OP was actually the Paradox Games banner.