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luxfelix

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[Suggestion for de jure drift conditions, claims, & Theocratic asset...]




After playing a campaign with modded de jure empire rules (in Europe, only HRE and ERE are de jure with everything else belonging to no de jure empire), I noticed generally more stability between catholic realms (even if gavelkind still lead to lots of internal strife; and, although the time period is long before official nationhood status, the question of what de jure means/could mean came to mind.


-- King of the [Culture] vs King of [Land] --
Think "King of the French" vs "King of France"

The former is the de facto kingdom-tier title for ruling the majority of French culture counties, whereas "King of France" denotes the authority over the territory settled by the French people and legitimized by the religious head.

Tribal governments without an organized religious head would have de facto kingdoms unless they fulfill the prerequisites to found a de jure kingdom or seize a de jure kingdom title from another realm.

Feudal governments are exclusively de jure title realms.

Republic, & Theocratic governments can be either de facto or de jure title realms.

Clan governments can be either de facto or de jure title realms; though, "not rightful ruler" malus occurs if the vassal or county do not share the same religion as the de jure title holder.


-- Claims --
As a de facto king (or chieftan) of a people, you gain an inherent claim to all counties where your culture is the majority; the downside is that other cultures receive a malus for "not rightful ruler", making stability more difficult.

As a de jure king of a territory, you gain the ability to press your title's claims and receive no "not rightful ruler" malus; however, if your culture has a de jure kingdom, then the inherent culture-based claims are no longer available.

Republic governments receive CBs on coastal counties within diplomatic range.

Theocratic governments that are independent and ruled by their religious head have inherent claims (holy war CBs) on all holy site counties of their religion held by characters of different religious groups.

Clan governments receive claims on all titles held by a member of their dynasty.


-- De Jure Drift --
The de jure drift counter represents the acceptance of the local populace. For de facto kingdoms, counties of their culture drift much faster and counties of their culture group drift slightly faster than normal. As de jure drift is gained, cultural & religious malus is gradually reduced until completed.

In this interpretation, de jure drift would countdown as it currently does; however, the theocrat (via Papal bulls for catholics) would need to assent to the change in de jure borders duchy by duchy. The acceptance score of the religious head will increase more as de jure drift reaches 100%, though other factors could lead to their assent to the de jure drift before completion (such as if your character is the religious head ;)), though the culture & religion malus would still requires time to complete.

The newly formed realms of successful peasant independence rebellions may receive near total de jure drift from the start, but peasant leaders will have a difficult time receiving religious head approval unless the current de jure title holder is excommunicated.

Excommunicated rulers will see a gradual loss of de jure drift until the excommunication is lifted.


-- Coronations --
Upon succession, de jure drift will begin to reverse, decreasing realm stability, until a coronation is held.

Then, the rank of the coronation theocratic character will grant either a slight, moderate, or major boost respectively towards de jure drift in the de jure counties of that particular title for which the ruler is crowned.

Usurpers will face a similar issue, seeking theocratic legitimacy to stabilize the realm once more.




[Feedback welcome! :)]
 
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Blk82

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How will that work with gavelkind, though? There can be only one "King of the French," so the younger sons of the "King of the French" can not inherit a de facto kingdom. The only way around that would be make a Frenchmen "King of the Bretons" or "King of the Dutch," which is silly. Also, it is fairly easy to expand a cultural group, and easier to have all right-culture vassals. Such a game rule would make tribals overpowered, effectively giving gavelkind with an indivisible top-level title.
 

luxfelix

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How will that work with gavelkind, though? There can be only one "King of the French," so the younger sons of the "King of the French" can not inherit a de facto kingdom. The only way around that would be make a Frenchmen "King of the Bretons" or "King of the Dutch," which is silly. Also, it is fairly easy to expand a cultural group, and easier to have all right-culture vassals. Such a game rule would make tribals overpowered, effectively giving gavelkind with an indivisible top-level title.


Good points!

How can we avoid overpowering tribal characters in this way? o_O
 

Blk82

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I really don't it could work with the current mechanics. Also, a "tribe" in not a nation in the modern sense. The title "King of Franks" is different from "King of the French."

The tribes were not proto-ethnicities. A single "tribe" might include several ethnicities that were former tribes that confederated together to form a new identity. In the steppe regions in particular, tribal kingdoms often had wrong-culture vassals. For example, the Hunnic empire was mostly Germanic, the Avar khanate was mostly Slavic, and the Mongol Empire was mostly Turkic on the Western Steppes. Likewise, a tribe might exclude large parts of a culture.

One could around gavelkind by spinning off separate kings for younger sons, aka King of the East Norse, King of the South Norse, etc. However, that would tend to debase the king-title, since that could create one-county kingdoms fairly easy by, or a mid sized realm holding half a dozen king titles due to reunification after divided inheritances. It would also be an argument against creating new cultures as the "Kingdom of the Crimean Goths" would be trivially easy to create.
 
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Undead Martyr

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How will that work with gavelkind, though? There can be only one "King of the French," so the younger sons of the "King of the French" can not inherit a de facto kingdom. The only way around that would be make a Frenchmen "King of the Bretons" or "King of the Dutch," which is silly. Also, it is fairly easy to expand a cultural group, and easier to have all right-culture vassals. Such a game rule would make tribals overpowered, effectively giving gavelkind with an indivisible top-level title.

Well the historical "Frankish Kingdom" was divided into west, east and middle Francia. Burgundy was split between upper and lower. Aquitaine was split off as a semi autonomous territory for the royal heir.
 

Blk82

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Well the historical "Frankish Kingdom" was divided into west, east and middle Francia. Burgundy was split between upper and lower. Aquitaine was split off as a semi autonomous territory for the royal heir.

I am aware of that. However, that would tend to create smaller and smaller kingdoms, and realm reunification would tend to concentrate several titles in one ruler, as I mentioned above.

There are probably ways around those issues. For example, title concentration could be avoided by destroying secondary de facto titles. Aka, if the King of the Middle Norse usurps the throne of the West Norse, one of those titles is auto-destroyed. Likewise, the King of any de facto kingdom would have claims on all the secondary titles of that kingdom. For example, even if the Middle and West Norse kingdoms were under separate lines for 10 generations, they would have a claim on each other's kingdom titles. And, to prevent the one county Kingdom of the Crimean Goths, if the realm size is below a threshold at inheritance, the kingdoms are demoted to duchies.

But, making that work would require reworking numerous mechanics. Also, it would isolate the tribal kingdoms from the feudal ones.
 

Undead Martyr

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As far as de jure goes I'd actually prefer a percentage based system that allows for multiple de jure claims since that's period appropriate. So for instance the Roman Empire (Byzantine or otherwise) would have vestigial claims on southern and Central Italy, France would have vestigial claims on Catalonia and Aquitaine in 1066... tie it to a title prestige mechanic perhaps.
 
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luxfelix

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As far as de jure goes I'd actually prefer a percentage based system that allows for multiple de jure claims since that's period appropriate. So for instance the Roman Empire (Byzantine or otherwise) would have vestigial claims on southern and Central Italy, France would have vestigial claims on Catalonia and Aquitaine in 1066... tie it to a title prestige mechanic perhaps.

By tying it to prestige, do you mean that prestige level would affect the rate at which de jure percentage is gained/lost, the ability to declare war for a vestigial claim, both, or neither?
 

Ecclesiasdeez__nutz

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"King of the French" probably requires a level of nationalist identity that wouldn't be formed until the 19th Century. They actually changed the title of the French soveriegn after one of their post Napoleonic revolutions.
 

Cèsar de Quart

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"King of the French" probably requires a level of nationalist identity that wouldn't be formed until the 19th Century. They actually changed the title of the French soveriegn after one of their post Napoleonic revolutions.
That's because the title wasn't King of the French, but King of the Franks. Rex Francorum.

It slowly changed into Rex Francie and by 1200 the phrase "Roy de France" or "King of France" was firmly established, the former "King of the Franks" only popping out in official documents every so often.

Still, the phrase "King of the "culture" was not unknown, and in some cases it was the most used. King of Scots, Tsar of the Bulgarians, King of Swedes and Goths, etc. That the titles referred to "peoples" doesn't mean these concepts had the same meaning or scope they came to have in the 19th Century onwards. They were usually warring elites (Franks, Goths, Swedes, etc etc etc), not "the whole people under my crown".
 
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By tying it to prestige, do you mean that prestige level would affect the rate at which de jure percentage is gained/lost, the ability to declare war for a vestigial claim, both, or neither?
Some sort of crown legitimacy or something perhaps. Sort of like CA but more in terms of how prestigious a particular title is.