Not with the largest economy in the world, and third largest countrysize in europe... 
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Dr Bob said:Not with the largest economy in the world, and third largest countrysize in europe...
Ehm...but...ehm...ok, good point.
Still, France is not naval!! It's at land 7!
Ranking of Countries (excluding Russia) (dip-adm-mil)
1) France (6-9-7)
Not much question about this I think, France was always a great power if not the superpower of the continent and despite some difficult spells when coalitions got formed against them they only got stronger. Defeating Britain in the late 1700's is no mean feat and vassalising much of Europe during Napolean wasn't bad either. Militarily a good performance, but not out of the ordinary, similiar with diplomacy, but Mioz's economic skills were superb and gave him the game.
2) Ottoman Empire (6-7-7)
A normal start was followed by a u-turn in policy to ally with Austria till the end of the game, and despite some critics in terms of realism and balance it worked out well for the Turk, with Austria focused on France and later Prussia the Sultan stretched his domain to the Bay of Bengal with only a minor interruption by an overly ambitious Russian conquistador. Was involved in a lot of conflicts though was never in a position to profit majorly from them, good all round performance and was one of two nations to avoid vassalisation in the end game.
3) England (8-6-6)
An interesting performance, was commendably active in the early game fighting primarily against Iberia and was eventually victorious with Swedish help. Was nicely fluid diplomatically, but turning against France was not as helpful as was hoped, with much of the Netherlands being lost, though they reallied for their largely successful last session. Economically absolut was competent, but not extraordinary but he did fight a couple of nice wars though losing to France in the 1700's isn't good.
4) Austria (6-5-7)
Austria's game was somewhat defined by the lack of Prussia for most of it, by the middle of the 16th century they had found their place in the diplomatic world, allied to the Ottomans to fight France, and this they duly did with varying degrees of success until Prussia finally revitalised itself. Such a development led to a few serious defeats against Franco-Prussian and even British forces and Austria never really posed a threat to France after. Despite this a couple of wars with Spain gave control of much of Italy and Austria remained a military power till the death of Erzehog Karl at Wellington's hands.
5) Portugal (4-7-7)
Till about 1700 Portugal was a real force in European affairs, but a series of player mishaps crippled it for the remainder of the game. Still fighting Marlborough to a standstill is no mean feat and Portugal was arguably the stronger Iberian for most of the game.
6) Sweden (5-5-4)
Suffered from an unreasonably aggressive Russia on its border, and despite enlisting foreign aid numerous times never managed a victory against the Czar. Taking the Russian diplomatic offer around 1700 was a good idea though and managed to get into a semi-permanent alliance with England and gained a nice CoT and protection from it. Unfortunately it wasn't enough even with Suvorov dying randomly and Finland was lost by 1775. Was not ever really a great power in naval terms either but was vital as an ally in any naval war. Economically never really took off, but was not dirt poor either.
7) Spain (too many players to really give a rating)
Despite gaining Italy early and no long lasting threat from the Turk, Spain was not a strong country and depended on Portugal for its survival in America against England. Despite allying later with France, Spain still suffered and lost much of Italy to Austria and was a non entity along with Portugal in the late game.
8) Poland/BB (too many players to really give a rating)
Probably changed the game by being away more than the rare times when it was played, forcing Russia to choose north or south after taking most of Lithunia, and allowing Austria to enter its static alliance. Still in the later years it did manage to wrest a large portion of Germany out of Austrian hands, balanced slightly by Russian advances on the eastern frontier. Also put up a fun fight in the Napoleonic Wars under Ear.
1) France (6-9-7)
Not much question about this I think, France was always a great power if not the superpower of the continent and despite some difficult spells when coalitions got formed against them they only got stronger. Defeating Britain in the late 1700's is no mean feat and vassalising much of Europe during Napolean wasn't bad either. Militarily a good performance, but not out of the ordinary, similiar with diplomacy, but Mioz's economic skills were superb and gave him the game.
2) Ottoman Empire (6-7-7)
A normal start was followed by a u-turn in policy to ally with Austria till the end of the game, and despite some critics in terms of realism and balance it worked out well for the Turk, with Austria focused on France and later Prussia the Sultan stretched his domain to the Bay of Bengal with only a minor interruption by an overly ambitious Russian conquistador. Was involved in a lot of conflicts though was never in a position to profit majorly from them, good all round performance and was one of two nations to avoid vassalisation in the end game.
3) England (8-6-6)
An interesting performance, was commendably active in the early game fighting primarily against Iberia and was eventually victorious with Swedish help. Was nicely fluid diplomatically, but turning against France was not as helpful as was hoped, with much of the Netherlands being lost, though they reallied for their largely successful last session. Economically absolut was competent, but not extraordinary but he did fight a couple of nice wars though losing to France in the 1700's isn't good.
4) Austria (6-5-7)
Austria's game was somewhat defined by the lack of Prussia for most of it, by the middle of the 16th century they had found their place in the diplomatic world, allied to the Ottomans to fight France, and this they duly did with varying degrees of success until Prussia finally revitalised itself. Such a development led to a few serious defeats against Franco-Prussian and even British forces and Austria never really posed a threat to France after. Despite this a couple of wars with Spain gave control of much of Italy and Austria remained a military power till the death of Erzehog Karl at Wellington's hands.
5) Portugal (4-7-7)
Till about 1700 Portugal was a real force in European affairs, but a series of player mishaps crippled it for the remainder of the game. Still fighting Marlborough to a standstill is no mean feat and Portugal was arguably the stronger Iberian for most of the game.
6) Sweden (5-5-4)
Suffered from an unreasonably aggressive Russia on its border, and despite enlisting foreign aid numerous times never managed a victory against the Czar. Taking the Russian diplomatic offer around 1700 was a good idea though and managed to get into a semi-permanent alliance with England and gained a nice CoT and protection from it. Unfortunately it wasn't enough even with Suvorov dying randomly and Finland was lost by 1775. Was not ever really a great power in naval terms either but was vital as an ally in any naval war. Economically never really took off, but was not dirt poor either.
7) Spain (too many players to really give a rating)
Despite gaining Italy early and no long lasting threat from the Turk, Spain was not a strong country and depended on Portugal for its survival in America against England. Despite allying later with France, Spain still suffered and lost much of Italy to Austria and was a non entity along with Portugal in the late game.
8) Poland/BB (too many players to really give a rating)
Probably changed the game by being away more than the rare times when it was played, forcing Russia to choose north or south after taking most of Lithunia, and allowing Austria to enter its static alliance. Still in the later years it did manage to wrest a large portion of Germany out of Austrian hands, balanced slightly by Russian advances on the eastern frontier. Also put up a fun fight in the Napoleonic Wars under Ear.
Dr Bob said:
I actually vassalised more countries than France during the last war, and yet you mention his vassalisations and not mine, you disappoint me.
Either way, very good rating, I agree with all of them.
I was the best diplomat.
Dr Bob said:
I personally may have rated Portugal a bit higher. It took a French-funded British-Swedish alliance during Marly and Karl a lot of effort to bring Portugal down. And until that war started it usually had the highest income.
Possibly, but the last 100 years of doing nothing kinda erased a lot of what went before in my ever so full up memory
Someone else best make a stab at one of these as well, I hate feeling alone and I do love heated arguments over who is right
Dr Bob said:Someone else best make a stab at one of these as well, I hate feeling alone and I do love heated arguments over who is right
But I agree with you.
Do I really have to?
Dr Bob said:
Only thing I would do different would be to put you on third place instead of England, and drop England from the ratings as I played them. Youll get a bit of a negative score for constantly losing your leaders though.
So that Bob doesn't feel too alone...my ratings (France excluded).
And more a rating of performance than the power of the country. Some countries just have less potential than others.
1) England (8/6/7): Very good diplomatic performance. Getting the Dutch provs as England without anyone trying to take that from you till the next to last session means a good diplomatic performance. There were only two wars (One in which it lost its Mexican provs to the extremely strong Portuguese and one the second to last session in which it lost two provs to the French) in which it really lost and it managed to be on the winning side in a lot more. And IMO Abs did a good job even in the wars he lost. The war he lost against France was a hard war not to lose. Not a great economical performance, but good enough to make England one of the richest countries.
2) Portugal(6/8/7): Great performance in the first 200 years. A good economy gave it the power to take Mexico from England and help Spain survive most of the French attacks. But without a strong Spain (hell, without even a mediocre Spain) it was not strong enough to beat the heavily funded English-Swedish alliance during Marly and Karl. It got really hurt by being ghosted the session after that, but it did recover a bit (third in income in 1778), but without a perm in the last two sessions it finally became a non-entity.
Until 1700 it was the nr 1 performance, after that it became first a miinor power and at the end a non-entity.
3) Austria(5/7/7): Good overall performance. One of the few countries with high eco-techs and it was stronger than France until Turenne. After that it needed help from its Ottoman ally, but when equally played Austria can not compete with France in the long run. Not in the 17th century anyway. Of course focussing only on France the first 150-200 years did give them a very hostile neighbour.
4) Russia(8/5/7): Wrecked its economy early on in wars against Sweden and the OE. It did win parts of Finland, but that wasn't enough to compensate for the loss of a decent income. But the last 100-150 years it started a comeback. A better economical performance combined with excellent diplomacy and good warskills slowly let Russia grow strong again. Bob was the most opportunistic player, joining the Austrian-OE alliance whenever there was something to gain from BB or Sweden. Even when Austria-OE were losing, the Russians managed to gain something from the Swedes or BB. And without ever getting retribution from the western powers. Of course the fact that it only beat its two weak neighbours and didn't even try to beat the OE was a minor stain on Russian greatness in the lategame.
5) OE(6/6/6): Managed to be one of the strongest countries during the whole game with decent performance on all fields. Was the major power in the east for almost the whole game. But I personally feel the everlasting Hungarian treaty was one of the major reasons for that. And that feels a bit like powergaming in a RP-game, which of course gives a big advantage for the powergamers, but which I do not feel is skillful play.
6) Sweden(7/5/4): Not a major power, but always a power that held some influence, mostly because of its navy. Suffered from the Russian obsession with Finland and lost most wars against them, but on the other hand helped England to bring down Portugal and in the last session managed to delay vassalisation long enough to kill Nappy.
7) BB/Poland: The few sessions it was played were actually not that bad for it. When it joined with France against the Austrian-OE alliance it usually gained a lot from Austria. And often lost some stuff to Russia in the same wars, but lost less than it gained. Still, after the BB-Polish merger it should have played the role of major power, but it stayed a power with minor influence. Mostly because it was ghosted more than any other country of course.
8) Spain: Decent start, but things went wrong pretty fast. The downfall was started when Spain attacked England for Timbuktu. The war was lost and Spain had kept fighting too long. Not a major problem, but a Spain was soon after struck by a civil war and its player quit. And that ended Spain's 50 years as major power. The rest of the game it was the sick man of Europe, which managed to keep its losses somewhat limited due to the help of Portugal and the enemies of its enemies. Mostly Austria helping when France attacked and vice versa...
And more a rating of performance than the power of the country. Some countries just have less potential than others.
1) England (8/6/7): Very good diplomatic performance. Getting the Dutch provs as England without anyone trying to take that from you till the next to last session means a good diplomatic performance. There were only two wars (One in which it lost its Mexican provs to the extremely strong Portuguese and one the second to last session in which it lost two provs to the French) in which it really lost and it managed to be on the winning side in a lot more. And IMO Abs did a good job even in the wars he lost. The war he lost against France was a hard war not to lose. Not a great economical performance, but good enough to make England one of the richest countries.
2) Portugal(6/8/7): Great performance in the first 200 years. A good economy gave it the power to take Mexico from England and help Spain survive most of the French attacks. But without a strong Spain (hell, without even a mediocre Spain) it was not strong enough to beat the heavily funded English-Swedish alliance during Marly and Karl. It got really hurt by being ghosted the session after that, but it did recover a bit (third in income in 1778), but without a perm in the last two sessions it finally became a non-entity.
Until 1700 it was the nr 1 performance, after that it became first a miinor power and at the end a non-entity.
3) Austria(5/7/7): Good overall performance. One of the few countries with high eco-techs and it was stronger than France until Turenne. After that it needed help from its Ottoman ally, but when equally played Austria can not compete with France in the long run. Not in the 17th century anyway. Of course focussing only on France the first 150-200 years did give them a very hostile neighbour.
4) Russia(8/5/7): Wrecked its economy early on in wars against Sweden and the OE. It did win parts of Finland, but that wasn't enough to compensate for the loss of a decent income. But the last 100-150 years it started a comeback. A better economical performance combined with excellent diplomacy and good warskills slowly let Russia grow strong again. Bob was the most opportunistic player, joining the Austrian-OE alliance whenever there was something to gain from BB or Sweden. Even when Austria-OE were losing, the Russians managed to gain something from the Swedes or BB. And without ever getting retribution from the western powers. Of course the fact that it only beat its two weak neighbours and didn't even try to beat the OE was a minor stain on Russian greatness in the lategame.
5) OE(6/6/6): Managed to be one of the strongest countries during the whole game with decent performance on all fields. Was the major power in the east for almost the whole game. But I personally feel the everlasting Hungarian treaty was one of the major reasons for that. And that feels a bit like powergaming in a RP-game, which of course gives a big advantage for the powergamers, but which I do not feel is skillful play.
6) Sweden(7/5/4): Not a major power, but always a power that held some influence, mostly because of its navy. Suffered from the Russian obsession with Finland and lost most wars against them, but on the other hand helped England to bring down Portugal and in the last session managed to delay vassalisation long enough to kill Nappy.
7) BB/Poland: The few sessions it was played were actually not that bad for it. When it joined with France against the Austrian-OE alliance it usually gained a lot from Austria. And often lost some stuff to Russia in the same wars, but lost less than it gained. Still, after the BB-Polish merger it should have played the role of major power, but it stayed a power with minor influence. Mostly because it was ghosted more than any other country of course.
8) Spain: Decent start, but things went wrong pretty fast. The downfall was started when Spain attacked England for Timbuktu. The war was lost and Spain had kept fighting too long. Not a major problem, but a Spain was soon after struck by a civil war and its player quit. And that ended Spain's 50 years as major power. The rest of the game it was the sick man of Europe, which managed to keep its losses somewhat limited due to the help of Portugal and the enemies of its enemies. Mostly Austria helping when France attacked and vice versa...
And because Bob asked for my rankings too.
1. France (7-9-6)
No brainer here imo. Mioz did a great job economically and even though France lost a good amount of wars against Austria in the first part of the game, saves for the first big war, France got strenghtened. Turning reformed payed off heavily and the decent diplomatic action showed off for the later part of the game. Even the bang against France was just a minor flaw in his game, it didn't really weaken Mioz as we could see in later wars.
2. Russia (7-6-8)
Despite the fact that Bob couldn't really handle his economy properly at the early part of the game Russia became a powerhouse for the last decade. Russia suffered an overheliming attack from his southern borders ,provocated by the attack against Sweden, but later Bob could pull out several smart moves. Even in the time of economical trouble Russia could carry over a disturbing attack on Turkey while she was at war with Persia, and after making a WP with the porta Russia vassalized Persia. This of course made Turkey upset and would have eventually led to a war but the a turn of political event saved Russia from a combined attack. Gradually Russia overcame her financical problems by self-power and various aids from other country and at the endgame Bob showed a great military performance against the various countries he had been war with.
3. England (8-6-6)
Often the turncoat of the game, but what can we expect from England? Joining the bang-wagon on various sides hardly harmed the isles. The only significant defeat was against a powerfull Portugal, but it wasn't a great blow to London. What's more, having obtained a junior partner in Sweden, England could fight back against Portugal and eventually triumph against KJ. Had an average economical performance, but afterall the persuading diplomatic skills of England drew up the situation for the last session which is quite an achievment. Even if I personally think that by in the last session England was ,the above named, junior partner to France
4. Austria (6-7-7)
If my memory serves right Austria won a war against France in the first session only to get beaten in the following. After the lost war against Turkey, Henry sought auidence with me coming up with a border deal for undefined time. With his proposal accepted, and with an inactive BBurg, Poland or the combined country of them, Austria could safely focus on France. Was often victorious against Mioz but by the later part of midgame could only triumph with Ottoman help, and even later when Prussia awakened it couldn't help him. Still, Henry put up a good fight against France in the endgame and even had a chance to avoid the vassalization.
5. Sweden (6-6-5)
A regional power from the start, consolidated Scandinavia fairly but soon Russia was knocking on his door. Could often get help from a third party but due to the changing diplomatic situation in Europe lost OE as an offensive ally. Still when needed economical aid, and a bit of help in colonizating was granted to Sweden from the porta. Though it turned out it wasn't a great idea from OE since Sweden joined ranks with Turncoat-Absolut and thus betrayed Istambul. Allah's punishment came in form of thousand of hungry Russians. In the last years Sweden could feel the betrayal also, England turned against his long loyal ally. Sweden's military performance was questionable, but Joohoo had his victorious moments also. In the end it was a Swedish army which took out Napoleon.
6. Portugal
Not a real ranking from now on for various reasons. Portugal could have been a great power with her superb start and even better first half of the game, but getting AIed and then losing her player(s) didn't do any good. Was a pity.
7. BB/Pol
Getting merged gave a great opportunity to the combined realm but was highly misplayed, if played at all. The isolationist policy was a foolish move for a country which would later become Prussia and being ghosted for most of the time was a unfortunate circumstance aswell. Still for the last few sessions the few warlike players who could play with it made a fun use of the good abilities of Prussia.
8. Spain
The nation which suffered the most from absence of a player. And even when it got played it was mostly beaten. Could do little against the combined might of France and England in the last session, but still managed to buy a few month for the rest of the players.
1. France (7-9-6)
No brainer here imo. Mioz did a great job economically and even though France lost a good amount of wars against Austria in the first part of the game, saves for the first big war, France got strenghtened. Turning reformed payed off heavily and the decent diplomatic action showed off for the later part of the game. Even the bang against France was just a minor flaw in his game, it didn't really weaken Mioz as we could see in later wars.
2. Russia (7-6-8)
Despite the fact that Bob couldn't really handle his economy properly at the early part of the game Russia became a powerhouse for the last decade. Russia suffered an overheliming attack from his southern borders ,provocated by the attack against Sweden, but later Bob could pull out several smart moves. Even in the time of economical trouble Russia could carry over a disturbing attack on Turkey while she was at war with Persia, and after making a WP with the porta Russia vassalized Persia. This of course made Turkey upset and would have eventually led to a war but the a turn of political event saved Russia from a combined attack. Gradually Russia overcame her financical problems by self-power and various aids from other country and at the endgame Bob showed a great military performance against the various countries he had been war with.
3. England (8-6-6)
Often the turncoat of the game, but what can we expect from England? Joining the bang-wagon on various sides hardly harmed the isles. The only significant defeat was against a powerfull Portugal, but it wasn't a great blow to London. What's more, having obtained a junior partner in Sweden, England could fight back against Portugal and eventually triumph against KJ. Had an average economical performance, but afterall the persuading diplomatic skills of England drew up the situation for the last session which is quite an achievment. Even if I personally think that by in the last session England was ,the above named, junior partner to France
4. Austria (6-7-7)
If my memory serves right Austria won a war against France in the first session only to get beaten in the following. After the lost war against Turkey, Henry sought auidence with me coming up with a border deal for undefined time. With his proposal accepted, and with an inactive BBurg, Poland or the combined country of them, Austria could safely focus on France. Was often victorious against Mioz but by the later part of midgame could only triumph with Ottoman help, and even later when Prussia awakened it couldn't help him. Still, Henry put up a good fight against France in the endgame and even had a chance to avoid the vassalization.
5. Sweden (6-6-5)
A regional power from the start, consolidated Scandinavia fairly but soon Russia was knocking on his door. Could often get help from a third party but due to the changing diplomatic situation in Europe lost OE as an offensive ally. Still when needed economical aid, and a bit of help in colonizating was granted to Sweden from the porta. Though it turned out it wasn't a great idea from OE since Sweden joined ranks with Turncoat-Absolut and thus betrayed Istambul. Allah's punishment came in form of thousand of hungry Russians. In the last years Sweden could feel the betrayal also, England turned against his long loyal ally. Sweden's military performance was questionable, but Joohoo had his victorious moments also. In the end it was a Swedish army which took out Napoleon.
6. Portugal
Not a real ranking from now on for various reasons. Portugal could have been a great power with her superb start and even better first half of the game, but getting AIed and then losing her player(s) didn't do any good. Was a pity.
7. BB/Pol
Getting merged gave a great opportunity to the combined realm but was highly misplayed, if played at all. The isolationist policy was a foolish move for a country which would later become Prussia and being ghosted for most of the time was a unfortunate circumstance aswell. Still for the last few sessions the few warlike players who could play with it made a fun use of the good abilities of Prussia.
8. Spain
The nation which suffered the most from absence of a player. And even when it got played it was mostly beaten. Could do little against the combined might of France and England in the last session, but still managed to buy a few month for the rest of the players.