Reconquista in Iberia

[Ebusitanus]

Muslim Taifa Kingdoms at 1066:

Albarracín (Teruel):Berber, Independent till 1104 when anexed by the Almoravids.

Almería: Under Slavic muslim rule till 1091 when anexed by the Almoravids.

Alpuente. (Teruel):Berber, till anexation by Almoravids in 1104

Arcos. (Cádiz): Berber, anexed by the Sevilla Taifa in 1069

Badajoz: Big Taifa that went all the way to Lisbon under Arabized Berbers who paid vassalge to the Castillian King till their destruction and anexation by the Almoravids in 1094. Their "royal" family fled to Castille.

Baleares: Slavic rule till 1114 when attacked by the Christians, calls Almoravids for help who anex them in 1116.

Carmona (Sevilla): Berber rule till anexation by Sevilla Taifa in 1069.

Córdoba: Fromer Caliphate seat, Ruled by Arabs till anexation by Sevilla Taifa in 1070

Denia (Alicante): Slavic rule till 1076 when taken over by the Zaragoza Taifa.

Granada: Also known as Elvira, Berber rule, Toke over the Malaga Taifa in 1057 and fell to the Almoravids in 1090.

Morón (Sevilla): Tunisian rule till 1066 when taken over by Sevilla Taifa.

Murcia: Arab rule till swallowed by the Sevilla Taifa in 1070, then in constant rebellion till anexed by the Almoravids in 1091.

Sevilla: The big conquering Taifa under arab rule, who anexed almost everybody around them. al-Mutamid, the great king-poet even took over Cordoba and Murcia till crushed by the Almoravids who sent him in chains to Morroco to die in a cell in 1091.

Toledo: Arabized Berbers who conquered Cordoba and were in constant fight with the Sevilla Taifa. Had to pay great sums to Castille for "protection money" and the help of the Castillian troops against Sevilla. In 1080 the rulling King gets overthrown by his own population only to get reinstated by the Castillian Army in 1081. Seeing though who feble his rule was Castille toke the whole province over in 1085 and set the deposed Muslim King up as a puppet in Valencia. Precisely this conquest of Toledo by the Castilians and their power over puppeted Valencia made the Taifas call the Almoravids in Morroco for help who came over and defeated the Castillian Army at Sargajas in 1086. Having done that and conquered back Toledo the Almoravids decided to take the whole Cake and anexed every single Taifa into one powerful Iberian Empire that extended into Morroco.

Tortosa (Tarragona): Like all the east coast, it was also ruled by Slavs muslims till anexed by the Zaragoza Taifa in 1070.

Valencia: Slavic rule till 1075 when conquered by the Toledo Taifa. Upon Castille´s conquest of Toledo, ruled by the fromer Toledo muslim King with castillian backing till his assesination in 1092. Gets sieged several times and falls to the reknown "El Cid" in 1094 only to get conquered back by the Almoravids in 1102.

Zaragoza: Arab rule, strong Taifa who fights almost everybody around them but keeps loosing lands to the Christian Kingdoms. Went on to being a Vassal State to the Almoravid Empire although nominally independent.


As you can see...This is the reality of the Iberian Muslim world by the time of this game in 1066. I would very much like to see this shown. Actually I would like to see what have the designers made as to today regarding this complex make up.

Taifa Kingdom situation in 1031 when the Caliphate broke down.

Further Map with the Taifa Kingdom situation at the time of the Caliphate´s demise in 1031. Many of those Taifas there presented had been swallowed up by other neigbors and as such please use the list above provided for existing taifas during 1066.

Under it the Almoravid take over in a map and Zaragoza as the only surviving Taifa (vassal).

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

It was great a post Ebusitanus, you made me feel like reading again "The Alcántara bridge".

Anyway, Toledo city was never retaken by the moors AFAIK.

King Alfonso was stopped in Sagrajas but could hold on (badly).

 

[unmerged(345)]

yep, a great post ebusitanus,
Toledo city area was under a (not very tight) siege but to not consequences. i recal that the first Toledo Archbishop was very active in the defense and even Alfonso VI's wife.
if only you had chosen other avatar...

 

[Ebusitanus]

Yes, you are very much correct, Toledo did not fall to the Almoravid host that set siege to it. It seems that the Almoravids had plenty of problems in dealing with their non too receptive Taifa Kings who needed them but did not want them to stay. Much of the strong Almoravid force was spent in overthrowing these Kings after their third arrival on the Iberian coast.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

One of the things I´m hoping for is a "recreation" of the Almoravids, Almohades and Benimerines threat, "replaying" huge battles like Navas de Tolosa or Salado, the desintegration of the Taifas, the wars@alliances between christian kingdoms...

Reconquista "should" be one of the most funny parts of the game (if not the most).

Let´s have our hopes high...

 

[unmerged(19088)]

To you Spaniards, (who probably know this):
Which areas of Iberia were never taken by the muslims, if there ever were such areas?
Is it true that the Arabs and Moors originally visited Spain as hired artisans and craftsmen, but acted as spies, and later on conquered the peninsula? (I've read this, but I'm not sure what was the main reason for the muslim conquest)
Were the inhabitans forced to convert to islam, or did they do it by free will?

(I'm just curious )

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by mhusoy
To you Spaniards, (who probably know this):
Which areas of Iberia were never taken by the muslims, if there ever were such areas?

Some areas in the Calabrian mountains were never taken (think roughly the two-three EU2 provinces on the northern shores of Spain).

Is it true that the Arabs and Moors originally visited Spain as hired artisans and craftsmen, but acted as spies, and later on conquered the peninsula? (I've read this, but I'm not sure what was the main reason for the muslim conquest)

The conquest was a continuation of the Arab Muslim expansion through the Middle East and North Africa.

Were the inhabitans forced to convert to islam, or did they do it by free will?

(I'm just curious )

They were not forced to convert, and in many cases even forbidden. They were taxed heavier than muslims, and had some restrictions and what they could own/do...

 

[Txini]

Originally posted by Havard
Some areas in the Calabrian mountains were never taken (think roughly the two-three EU2 provinces on the northern shores of Spain).

Cantabrian Havard, Calabria is in South Italy

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Originally posted by Havard
Some areas in the Calabrian mountains were never taken (think roughly the two-three EU2 provinces on the northern shores of Spain).

They also abandoned Galicia very soon; berber nobles (to which corresponded Galician lands) found them extremely cold and wet...

 

[Ebusitanus]

Originally posted by Havard
Some areas in the Calabrian mountains were never taken (think roughly the two-three EU2 provinces on the northern shores of Spain).

That is actually not entirely true. Much like people tend to forget how South France after the Muslim defeat at Poitiers still remained under their rule, much of North Spain, Galicia and Cantabria included were swallowed up by the Muslim steamroller (Save some mountainous areas) only that this muslim presence lasted a very short time (a few years) till their lack of interest, the mounting pressure by the Christains there and overextension made this nominal rule recede away.

The conquest was a continuation of the Arab Muslim expansion through the Middle East and North Africa.

Only the fact that all this African area was Arrian in their Christain belief and thus in fight with Catholic Rome helped the equally truly monotheistic muslims to take over. Much of the same did happen in Iberia.

They were not forced to convert, and in many cases even forbidden. They were taxed heavier than muslims, and had some restrictions and what they could own/do...

As I said before, most of the Hispano-Roman population under the Visigothic rule were actually Arrian in their religious belief and being brutalitzed by their Catholic overlords. Being truly monotheistic in that they did not accept the Dogma of the Trinity (God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit) but only adored God as divine, made them convert to the Muslims in veritable masses. Those who decided to live on as Christians in Muslim Iberia became the Mozarabes and bound to be taxed more than the muslims (Thats already a powerful lure to convert). I´m interested though in knowing further from those Harvard says were not allowed to convert.

 

[unmerged(19088)]

Thanks a lot for your answers, as I understood, the whole peninsula was never taken (only most of it).
Were the inhabitans only Visigoths (gothic people from north/central Europe), weren't there any Roman descendants living there?

 

[Ebusitanus]

It depends upon what you call "taken". If by political power we could say there sure were maybe a few years where there was no real anything worth to talk about opposing the Muslim rule on all of Iberia (save for a few inhospitable mountains in the north) but this very same power after a few years of being only nominal slowly began to wane away as local Christain warlords began to question it. This is basically the creation of the "Christian Kingdoms", warlords that began taking those lands the muslims just did not care wasting troops to garrison, but village after village they grew in size and power till the point where they could take advantage of the internal crumbling of the Cordoba Caliphate and feed and grow at the expense of the less dangerous and more divided Taifa Kingdoms. It was a long process to be sure from the total defeat of 711 to the destruction of the Caliphate in 1031. Not to foget the Franks who after cleansing France propper did raid into Muslim dominated Iberia and even set up their own protection buffer state in what was called the "Marca Hispanica" in NE Iberia, which in due time would gain its independence and fussionate with Aragon to become the Kingdom of Aragon.

The Visigoths had arrived as a whole population migration (much unlike the muslim invasion) numbering around 250.000 after much looting and buring through the Balkans and Italy. They settled into Iberia which had roughly around 4 million souls living there already, a mix between the ancient Iberians, Celts, a few Phoenicians, etc..and their Roman conquerors who had settled in numerous veteran colonies and throughout the countryside in great numbers. This Hispano-Roman population was then mostly turned into sefdoom basically by the newly arrived Visigoths who battled for a while with some other germanic tribes who had arrived before them (Alanii, Suevii and Vandals) and ultimately won. The Visigoths tried for a good while to keep each people separated as much as possible (that did not work out to good on the long run) and accepted the Catholic faith of Rome eventually. This put them even more at odds with the Hispano-Roman population mass who did not like Catholisim and was mostly still Arrian Christians. The Jewish population in Iberia was also not well treated by the Visigoths and did eventually welcome with more than open arms the Muslim invaders (opening city doors, helping them out as milicia, etc..). More or less this was the situation the Muslims found when they crossed the Gibraltar Strait with the initial intention of plundering the Iberian countryside. The rest is history.

 

[Vandelay]

The Visigoths (and Suebi) made up only a fraction of the population (I´d guess even the Jews were more numerous than the Germanic overlords) - the vast majority were Hispano-Roman.

At the time of the Moslem conquest I´m not even sure the Visigoths retained their Germanic language (?).

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Txini
Cantabrian Havard, Calabria is in South Italy

Doh!

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Originally posted by Vandelay


At the time of the Moslem conquest I´m not even sure the Visigoths retained their Germanic language (?).

Cheers,
Vandelay

It was yet a bit mixed, as they´d been in France many years. But they had to use that "late germanized latin" that was +/- the language in Spain, IIRC.

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Ebusitanus
That is actually not entirely true. Much like people tend to forget how South France after the Muslim defeat at Poitiers still remained under their rule, much of North Spain, Galicia and Cantabria included were swallowed up by the Muslim steamroller (Save some mountainous areas) only that this muslim presence lasted a very short time (a few years) till their lack of interest, the mounting pressure by the Christains there and overextension made this nominal rule recede away.

Well, that's pretty much what I said wasn't it? "Some areas in the Cantabrian mountains"? I should perhaps have mantioned Asturias and/or Galicia?

I´m interested though in knowing further from those Harvard says were not allowed to convert.

I was referring to things I have read... I'll need to go through some more books to find it again, but I found this page citing: "So valuable was the jizya to the treasury that the Sultans of Cordova were in no hurry to convert the dhimmis to islam."

To say they were forbidden to convert is a stretch though - I'll concede that without any problem. But they weren't exactly forced either...

 

[unmerged(8913)]

Originally posted by Havard
To say they were forbidden to convert is a stretch though - I'll concede that without any problem. But they weren't exactly forced either...

Maybe they weren't actively encouraged by the Islamic Rulers, but I'd argue that the very existence of the extra taxes on the non-Muslim subjects acted as a de facto encouragement to convert from the point of view of those subjects, just to avoid extra taxation.

 

[Conrad]

Ebusitanus wrote:
__________________________________________________
The Visigoths had arrived as a whole population migration (much unlike the muslim invasion) numbering around 250.000 after much looting and buring through the Balkans and Italy.
__________________________________________________

I doubt that they were this numerous. Keep in mind that it is easy to exagerate the numbers of the Goths due to their military successes. We have to keep in mind that the Germanic armies were in no way monoethnic. Moreover newcomers from Scandinavia often swelled their ranks only to return home with the gold (this time is sometimes called the "gold age" due to the rich hoards of gold that were buried in Sweden at the time).

So when we estimate the numbers of the Goths we have to include vast numbers of "other nationalities" that allied with them to get a piece of the spoils. The Visigothic part of the Visigoths was probably restricted to the ruling elite.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by Conrad
Ebusitanus wrote:
__________________________________________________
The Visigoths had arrived as a whole population migration (much unlike the muslim invasion) numbering around 250.000 after much looting and buring through the Balkans and Italy.
__________________________________________________

I doubt that they were this numerous. Keep in mind that it is easy to exagerate the numbers of the Goths due to their military successes. We have to keep in mind that the Germanic armies were in no way monoethnic. Moreover newcomers from Scandinavia often swelled their ranks only to return home with the gold (this time is sometimes called the "gold age" due to the rich hoards of gold that were buried in Sweden at the time).

So when we estimate the numbers of the Goths we have to include vast numbers of "other nationalities" that allied with them to get a piece of the spoils. The Visigothic part of the Visigoths was probably restricted to the ruling elite.

250,000 is actually pretty accurate, from what I've read.

 

[Conrad]

Sure, I don't say that the figures are taken out of the blue.

They are probably not unrealistic as to the might of the Visigoth armies. There was however no census at the time, and I just question the figure as indicating the number of ethnic Visigoths. The most relevant analogy is with the Franks and I doubt that Charlemagnes forces were made up of only Germanic Franks. I guess the Germanic part was more restricted to the nobles and the infantry from the Eastern parts. Concerning the Visigoths it is thus more likely to see them as nobles commanding vaster armies of Romance foot soldiers.