Reconnaissance Company Test

[Secret Master]

I’m a little unclear about the OPs test. How many combats were tested under each condition?

@myzael
Does removing the die rolls impact tactics selection at all? Or is the RNG for that separate?

 

[Kryndude]

I’m a little unclear about the OPs test. How many combats were tested under each condition?

10 for each, total 40.

 

[Secret Master]

10 for each, total 40.

Thanks. That makes it clearer.

 

[Spelaren]

Speaking of recon, how useful are recon planes in singleplayer?

 

[Zauberelefant]

Speaking of recon, how useful are recon planes in singleplayer?

As one factory is enough when starting production in 37, Go for it. It can only die good.

 

[Simon_9732495]

Speaking of recon, how useful are recon planes in singleplayer?

That's off topic. I think you should start a new thread for that.

Anyway:
By performing air recon missions you can gather:

• Civilian Intel: Maximum 25%
• Army Intel: Maximum 20%
• Air Intel: Maximum 20%

Civilian intel can show you enemy trade routes, army intel and air intel give a buff (or debuff if you are weaker) in combat.
That's something for flying some planes.

 

[myzael]

Or is the RNG for that separate?

Yes, you can simply remove all but one giving no benefits for the same result.

 

[Reman]

Actually, being behind on general skill level will not reduce the benefit of recon. If both sides are commanded by stupid level 1 generals with no traits, then yes, recon will not have much of an effect, because so many tactics are locked. However, if the scenario was instead, say, a level 4 general with trickster versus a level 8 general with every trait in the game, then the level 4 general will actually benefit a lot from having the recon advantage.

If the level 8 gen. has the recon advantage instead, then they will probably counter more than half of the tactic rolls, resulting in around 10% bonus to attack. However, if the level 4 general has the recon advantage, then the playing field is more level. Of course the level 8 general still has better tactics, but they will be less likely to counter the level 4 general's tactics. Think of recon as mitigating the effects of fighting against a far superior commander.

Light tank recon doesn't dilute armor/piercing (much). But I still wouldn't research recon past the second tier, and I would only research the second after all the important 1940/1941 techs are done.

This post could really benefit from a more thorough explanation. How are you getting the 10% number?

If you're on the offense (where you'll be in most of SP games), the defender has a total of 19 tactics they can choose from assuming everything is unlocked. Only 3 of them have counters at all. Recon doesn't guarantee a side will get a counter by any means either, it just increases the likelihood by slightly less than a factor of 2. From this, the 10% number seems excessively generous, but maybe there are other considerations I'm not accounting for.

Even if recon does indeed lead to a 10% swing in attack, it'd still have a hard time competing against other marginal support companies. Sticking an MP company on 20w frontline infantry gives around a 10% boost to attack (and various other boosts to DEF, BRK, etc), for instance.

 

[bitmode]

If you're on the offense (where you'll be in most of SP games), the defender has a total of 19 tactics they can choose from assuming everything is unlocked. Only 3 of them have counters at all.

If the defender does not have initiative and as the combat phase is usually default outside of river and urban fighting, the number is closer to 5 or 6 (defend, delay, ambush, elastic defense, backhand blow, guerilla/overwhelming) available tactics. Two of the three counterable tactics are in this set.

For example, if the defender does not have trickster they cannot trigger the Tactical withdrawal phase. Without a river none of the bridge phases can happen. Outside of urban terrain and Aggressive Assaulter, Close combat is very unlikely.

Recon doesn't guarantee a side will get a counter by any means either, it just increases the likelihood by slightly less than a factor of 2.

Recon advantage gives 5 skill levels, i.e. 5 * 35% = 165% bonus.

The attacker has roughly 6 equally weighted tactics available in the default phase (excluding Assault due to low probability). So normally they have a 1-out-of-6 chance in the ~35% of cases where the defender picked something counterable to actually counter. That's ~6%.
With recon advantage it is 2.65-out-of-7.65 for the ~35% cases. That's ~12%.

 

[Kryndude]

Thanks for the details. But problem is, an offensive FM will likely have the Aggressive Assaulter trait, at least I make sure that whoever has Brilliant Strategist becomes FM for my offensive armies. And river crossing and urban combat is quite common and often the more important and difficult battles, but Recon has significantly less impact in those situations.

 

[Secret Master]

But problem is, an offensive FM will likely have the Aggressive Assaulter trait,

I have a strategic masterstroke to counter this problem.

Don't ever assign Aggressive Assaulter to a Field Marshal, and fire any Field Marshal that starts with it.



I've been following that advice for years. Ever since I figured out that going into Close Combat was terribad, I have avoided that trait like the plague. It's not the same as it used to be, but I'll be damned if I use it today regardless.

When on the attack, the close combat phase is to be avoided at all costs. It's a giant vortex of sucktitude from which even Rommel and Patton have difficulty escaping. I'm just glad it doesn't happen in open terrain that much anymore.

 

[Zauberelefant]

I have a strategic masterstroke to counter this problem.

Don't ever assign Aggressive Assaulter to a Field Marshal, and fire any Field Marshal that starts with it.



I've been following that advice for years. Ever since I figured out that going into Close Combat was terribad, I have avoided that trait like the plague. It's not the same as it used to be, but I'll be damned if I use it today regardless.

When on the attack, the close combat phase is to be avoided at all costs. It's a giant vortex of sucktitude from which even Rommel and Patton have difficulty escaping. I'm just glad it doesn't happen in open terrain that much anymore.

Isn't the close Combat tactics bug solved since 1.7?

 

[Secret Master]

Isn't the close Combat tactics bug solved since 1.7?

The "forever alone in Close Combat" bug? Yes. It's not infinite anymore, thankfully.

But I'm talking about the fact that even getting suckered into it a few hours is a situation where your attacking divisions are wasting their damn time when they could be actually making a breakthrough or encircling or overrunning divisions.

My heightened and hyperbolic rhetoric may have made it sound like the bug still existed. It does not. But I don't want to even spend 1 hour in that combat phase. And I don't want field marshals making it even 1% more likely when attacking. Why even bother having armored thrusts otherwise?

 

[Zauberelefant]

The "forever alone in Close Combat" bug? Yes. It's not infinite anymore, thankfully.

But I'm talking about the fact that even getting suckered into it a few hours is a situation where your attacking divisions are wasting their damn time when they could be actually making a breakthrough or encircling or overrunning divisions.

My heightened and hyperbolic rhetoric may have made it sound like the bug still existed. It does not. But I don't want to even spend 1 hour in that combat phase. And I don't want field marshals making it even 1% more likely when attacking. Why even bother having armored thrusts otherwise?

Comparing the effects of CC tactics vs standard tactics, I have to agree. Especially since you are locked a while in the chosen tactic.

 

[Kryndude]

And I don't want field marshals making it even 1% more likely when attacking.

I'm not sure if that's the case. According to the wiki, Aggressive Assaulter increases weight for Assault by 2 and weight for Shock by 4. So, if the original chance of Assault was X/Y, with AA it becomes (X+2) / (Y+6). This means that Assault becomes less likely to fire if X/Y was more than 1/3 and more likely if it was less. Base weight for Assault is 2 in urban terrain while most tactics that doesn't change combat phase has base weight of 4. This means that if there's any tactic available other than Assault, you don't make it more likely to fire by taking AA, and if there are more than one you, in fact, make it less likely to fire by taking AA.

edit: hold on, I think I got it other way around

edit2: yep, I got confused. It's the opposite. If there were two or more tactics that could've fired other than Assault, AA increases its chance. One if in a non-urban province.

 

[Kryndude]

But I'm not sure if Assault is necessarily a bad thing. I actually don't like Shock more than Assault, looking at the numbers. Assault makes you take more damage but also lets you disorg the enemy quicker, but that's okay because 10% breakthrough from AA makes up for it. Problem is Shock. It gets much more likely to fire with AA, but it only decreases enemy attack and doesn't increase yours, making it slower for you to penetrate.

@Secret Master After giving it a thought, I think you're right to avoid the trait. This changes my game plan quite a lot, thanks for mentioning.

 

[STABBY5]

With how recon works right now, its only impactful on generals who cannot use certain tactics at all due to their low level. The armored recon battalion itself is worth it just for the added breakthrough, armor, and speed. They should add another support slot and make recon more important.

 

[Secret Master]

After giving it a thought, I think you're right to avoid the trait. This changes my game plan quite a lot, thanks for mentioning.

You're quite welcome.

Besides, who doesn't welcome the chance to free up a field marshal trait for something else?

 

[bitmode]

Besides, who doesn't welcome the chance to free up a field marshal trait for something else?

Don't play with Waking the Tiger and the choice becomes even easier *taps head*

 

[Secret Master]

Don't play with Waking the Tiger and the choice becomes even easier *taps head*