Reconnaissance Company Test

[Kryndude]

Spoiler: Test Conditions

• Superior Firepower right left
• All 1940 techs unlocked
• Plains
• Level 4 generals on both side
• 24% entrenchment
• Regulars
• Recon tech 3 but shouldn't really matter because whichever side has the higher recon gets a flat 5 bonus to skill level
• Motorized Recon, 14% increase in cost

Spoiler: Division Templates

Spoiler: Index

Attacker >>> Defender
Length of battle (days/hours)
Fatalities
Number of counter tactic roles
Average (A-D)
Results of all 10 battles

1. No Recon >>> No Recon

5d 9h​

1168 vs 299 (869)​

1.4 vs 0.7 (0.7)​

Spoiler: Battle Results

5d 19h
1188 vs 300
2 vs 0

5d 6h
1210 vs 278
0 vs 1

4d 22h
1132 vs 233
3 vs 0

5d 7h
1166 vs 266
3 vs 1

4d 15h
1166 vs 311
0 vs 0

5d 23h
1177 vs 366
0 vs 0

4d 20h
1132 vs 300
1 vs 0

5d 8h
1188 vs 311
1 vs 2

6d 6h
1154 vs 333
3 vs 1

5d 15h
1166 vs 289
1 vs 2

2. Recon >>> No Recon

6d 1h​

1204 vs 331 (873)​

1.3 vs 0.5 (0.8)​

Spoiler: Battle Results

5d 23h
1195 vs 333
0 vs 0

5d 18h
1183 vs 289
2 vs 1

5d 23h
1206 vs 333
1 vs 1

6d 5h
1218 vs 344
1 vs 0

6d 17h
1241 vs 311
0 vs 2

6d 13h
1206 vs 400
4 vs 0

5d 16h
1183 vs 311
0 vs 1

6d 8h
1218 vs 333
2 vs 0

5d 16h
1206 vs 311
0 vs 0

5d 19h
1183 vs 344
3 vs 0

3. Recon >>> Recon

5d 13h​

1192 vs 322 (870)​

0.5 vs 0.4 (0.1)​

Spoiler: Battle Results

5d 7h
1264 vs 313
0 vs 0

6d 6h
1206 vs 313
0 vs 1

5d 7h
1183 vs 336
0 vs 2

5d 6h
1160 vs 302
1 vs 0

5d 17h
1183 vs 348
1 vs 0

5d 9h
1195 vs 290
1 vs 0

5d 14h
1183 vs 348
1 vs 0

5d 22h
1195 vs 371
0 vs 0

5d 13h
1160 vs 313
0 vs 0

5d 6h
1195 vs 290
1 vs 1

4. No Recon >>> Recon

5d​

1165 vs 276 (889)​

0.4 vs 1.4 (-1.0)​

Spoiler: Battle Results

5d 12h
1143 vs 302
0 vs 1

5d 5h
1166 vs 267
1 vs 3

4d 17h
1188 vs 290
0 vs 0

5d 8h
1188 vs 267
1 vs 2

5d 7h
1166 vs 267
0 vs 1

4d 5h
1188 vs 290
0 vs 0

5d 10h
1132 vs 267
0 vs 2

5d 6h
1166 vs 290
1 vs 3

4d 13h
1210 vs 244
0 vs 1

4d 16h
1099 vs 278
1 vs 1

TL;DR
Recon has almost no impact on the outcome of battle.

 

[balmung60]

Interesting that almost nothing has changed from before the recon rework, despite insistence otherwise.

 

[SophieX]

Thank you for sharing these results

Recon has almost no impact on the outcome of battle.

I think, you "missed" one word in your conclusion:

"Recon has almost no impact on the outcome of this battle."

I suggest, that the attack to defense values of 1:2.4 was too low; may be with 2 attacking divisions the outcome could be different

 

[Goshawk]

Could u try to create a division with same breakthrough and defense. The defender is obviously going to win in your test since defense>soft attack>>breakthrough. If u let them fight on equal term, then the effectiveness of recon company should become more clearer.

I suggest u go to console to do that. You probably want to remove dice roll from the equation, too.

 

[Simon_9732495]

I suggest u go to console to do that. You probably want to remove dice roll from the equation, too.

Can you explain that, please?

 

[myzael]

Can you explain that, please?

Change the defines that affect randomness in combat calculations and remove it. Reman's Paradox does this in his YouTube video on HOI4 combat for instance.

 

[Kryndude]

I honestly don't see how increasing attack would change the outcome. If Recon had any sort of impact on performance I might agree that doing so would result in amplified kill counts, but right now it's just so inconsequential.

 

[KDEstroy]

When I ran the test a couple of months ago, I found that for infantry, the recon bonus gives roughly 2% attack bonus to infantry divisions under a good general. Which is about the same as your results.

However, I also tested mechanized divisions with recon, and found that they were more effective - they received around 3.7% buff to attack. This is due to the fact that divisions with greater than 50% hardness can use far more tactics than infantry divisions, and as a result recon has a far larger impact. This is my test:

There are a few things you should know about Recon and initiative:

1. Whichever side has the higher recon value has the recon advantage. Recon advantage is binary, it doesn't matter whether you have 100 recon or 0.5 recon more than your opponent, the advantage you get is the same.

2. Recon advantage is equal to increasing your general skill level by 5 points, for the purposes of selecting tactics. Whichever side has more skill points in total has initiative. Initiative is not binary, having a 1 point advantage will barely make a difference but a 10 point advantage is a big deal.

3. The tactics available are highly dependent on two factors: your general, and the doctrines researched.

The wiki explains it a lot better than I do: https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Combat_tactics

Based on this I designed a test to determine the value of recon. I designed 4 width infantry templates which leads to long battles and allows me to observe the tactics chosen. First, two armies face off, except two divisions on the attacker side has recon company. Both sides have maxed out Mobile Warfare doctrine, generals are both skill 3, with the trickster trait. I let it run for about 300 tactics cycles, recording how many times the attacker countered the defender's tactic, how many times the defender countered the attacker, and how many times neither side was countered. Then, I repeated the process, except this time the defender has recon companies, and the attacker does not.

Finally, I repeated the above procedure, this time attacking with mechanized infantry, which has >50% hardness, and the defending general now has one more skill point than the attacker. Thus significantly increasing the tactics available to both sides. I made sure to stop attacking once hardness drops under 50%. You can view the results in the spreadsheet I've uploaded.

On average, every time you counter your opponent's tactics, you gain a 25% buff to division attack. This buff applies to all divisions in a battle, even including divisions without recon company, and divisions controlled by an ally.

Results:
For the infantry battle, having recon gave the attacker on average 2.06% bonus to attack. For the mechanized, they gained a 3.69% bonus.

That may not seem like much. After all, 1936 support artillery gives 15 soft attack, which is roughly 10% of your average infantry division's attack value. However you should recall that the recon advantage is binary, either you have it or you don't. Also keep in mind that one division with recon can benefit all other divisions fighting in the same battle.

If your opponent neglects Recon entirely, and you only have one Recon Company fighting in the battle, you would essentially have bought 40 attack for the low cost of only 60 IC, which is ridiculously good, considering that most tank divisions have an IC cost to attack ratio of around 16-20, which means that usually one point of attack costs around 18 IC. However, if both you and your opponent has invested heavily in Recon, but they happen to be one Recon tech ahead of you, you could potentially waste 240 IC for absolutely no benefit.

TL;DR Recon is good in armored divisions, good when you have good generals and good doctrines. Recon is all or nothing, the goal is to have just barely better recon companies than your opponent, and you will have the full benefit.

 

[Simon_9732495]

So it seems the way to go is to research the first tier of recon company, use it for fast offensive divisions for the speed bonus, and don't research the other tiers.

Great. Another 3 researches less.

 

[Kryndude]

The thing is, these test conditions are more favorable for Recon than in practice. In practice, you won't always have all tactics unlocked, and if you're fighting across a river there's even less chance of countering the enemy. If you're behind on general skill level you also benefit less.

I'm still not convinced that recon on tanks is worth it despite the hit on armor/piercing/organization. A bit of attack usually won't be worth sacrificing those stats. Better argument is to use it for the movement speed, which is difficult to quantify its worth so it's up to you to decide if you think it's worth it.

 

[Spelaren]

It makes the divisions faster which is useful.

 

[Fulmen]

Recon's been a net-negative tech and battalion type since release. Such a shame it still isn't fixed; IRL recon was and is absolutely vital.

How much do the values need to be buffed for it to become something one shouldn't ignore?

 

[Kryndude]

It makes the divisions faster which is useful.

But is it worth paying extra 14% for infantry is the real question. Much more forgiving for armored divisions I'll admit, although it's debatable if you want to dilute your armor/piercing/organization for 10% speed and a bit of attack.

 

[myzael]

Recon's been a net-negative tech and battalion type since release. Such a shame it still isn't fixed; IRL recon was and is absolutely vital.

How much do the values need to be buffed for it to become something one shouldn't ignore?

There's also the utility factor, namely intel gained in combat. Granted I have no idea how to quantify it.

Perhaps recon should add more terrain modifiers instead of just speed?

 

[Fulmen]

There's also the utility factor, namely intel gained in combat. Granted I have no idea how to quantify it.

Perhaps recon should add more terrain modifiers instead of just speed?

Ideally REC should work in tandem with things like ART. Many a would-be successful push has been obliterated by a successful precision barrage (and CAS, come think of it), because the defenders knew where to hit them. Naturally air recon should also have this effect.

 

[KDEstroy]

The thing is, these test conditions are more favorable for Recon than in practice. In practice, you won't always have all tactics unlocked, and if you're fighting across a river there's even less chance of countering the enemy. If you're behind on general skill level you also benefit less.

I'm still not convinced that recon on tanks is worth it despite the hit on armor/piercing/organization. A bit of attack usually won't be worth sacrificing those stats. Better argument is to use it for the movement speed, which is difficult to quantify its worth so it's up to you to decide if you think it's worth it.

Actually, being behind on general skill level will not reduce the benefit of recon. If both sides are commanded by stupid level 1 generals with no traits, then yes, recon will not have much of an effect, because so many tactics are locked. However, if the scenario was instead, say, a level 4 general with trickster versus a level 8 general with every trait in the game, then the level 4 general will actually benefit a lot from having the recon advantage.

If the level 8 gen. has the recon advantage instead, then they will probably counter more than half of the tactic rolls, resulting in around 10% bonus to attack. However, if the level 4 general has the recon advantage, then the playing field is more level. Of course the level 8 general still has better tactics, but they will be less likely to counter the level 4 general's tactics. Think of recon as mitigating the effects of fighting against a far superior commander.

Light tank recon doesn't dilute armor/piercing (much). But I still wouldn't research recon past the second tier, and I would only research the second after all the important 1940/1941 techs are done.

 

[Kryndude]

If the level 8 gen. has the recon advantage instead, then they will probably counter more than half of the tactic rolls, resulting in around 10% bonus to attack.

Can you confirm that? Or is it just estimation? I don't think recon advantage would let you counter half the time, there's only so many tactics you can counter in this game.

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

Ah, this again. Recon had no impact pre patch and still have no impact. So nothing really changes.

 

[Goshawk]

Can you explain that, please?

After looking around, you might not be able to edit dice roll in hoi4 like u can in eu4.

However to buff the breakthrough add the following command to ur console.

add_temporary_buff_to_units = {
    combat_breakthrough = 3
    days=90
}

If in doubt, refer to here [wiki].

 

[myzael]

After looking around, you might not be able to edit dice roll in hoi4 like u can in eu4.

However to buff the breakthrough add the following command to ur console.

add_temporary_buff_to_units = {
    combat_breakthrough = 3
    days=90
}

If in doubt, refer to here [wiki].

Can you explain that, please?

Change the following defines to 1 each:

    LAND_COMBAT_ORG_DICE_SIZE = 4,                 -- nr of damage dice
    LAND_COMBAT_STR_DICE_SIZE = 2,                 -- nr of damage dice

This removes damage randomness when there's no armor involved. You'd have to also remove tactics to have perfectly predictable combat.