Rebellions

[GC13]

So, now rebelling planets spawn ships, in addition to really large amounts of soldiers as well. I'm not sure this is a good development, but I'm not sure how rebels can really be made interesting from a gameplay perspective without doing things that make no sense.

Rather than getting magical (and enormous, and maybe even too expensive for the planet to maintain) fleets from nowhere, I believe that there should be an intermediate step between a faction rioting in the streets and a faction rising up and hitting your military with the same equipment that your ground huggers are equipped with. When a faction hits the Rebellion stage, rather than the planet forming its own empire and declaring war on you, it should enter a stage where it's simulating an insurgency rather than large armies openly fighting yours in the field.

Maybe this would go best with a hypothetical espionage DLC. Factions could be able to curry favor from foreign empires, making it so their fleet and their armies' heavy equipment come from somewhere. I'm not sure if rebels should even buy a fleet though, unless they're in a circumstance where you won't be able to concentrate. If they wait until you're at war to rise, a fleet moving in to protect orbit makes sense, since it's harder for you to reinforce their armies and they can get heavy gear to their armies. If you're at peace though? They're trapped in the insurgency phase until you send in assault armies to root them out and crush them.

 

[Andrzej2]

I think that part of your fleet that was recruited on rebelling planets should join rebels. Also some loyalty system of fleets and generals would be nice - In Eu Rome army leaded by general was gaining loyalty towards him so after some time and plenty of victorious battles he had many loyal troops that could be used to overthrow government. I can see something similar in Stellaris.

 

[vyshan]

I am more concerned atm with the fact that if you are at war with nation 1 and rebels break of from nation 1 and you want to help the rebels, you are at war with them still.

@Wiz Will that be changed?

 

[skillincarnate]

I think that part of your fleet that was recruited on rebelling planets should join rebels. Also some loyalty system of fleets and generals would be nice - In Eu Rome army leaded by general was gaining loyalty towards him so after some time and plenty of victorious battles he had many loyal troops that could be used to overthrow government. I can see something similar in Stellaris.

I think something along these lines would be amazing... say a % of fleet roughly equally to the % of your pop that revolts defects and joins the rebels. It would make civil war super costly because every ship you blow up would be your own. Also it is more realistic/plausible than believing they have been secretly building large military ships without my empire knowing until the very last second.

 

[GC13]

I don't think ships defecting would make sense except as an abstraction ("X% of your officers are in sympathy with the rebels and have managed to bring their ships over"). Most space empires will probably be past the regimental system where each unit and ship is filled with people from the same world, so even if Khersonia rises up in revolt and naval crewmen from the world want to help, the crewmen from Blorg will probably have something to say about that. Meanwhile the Sibulans and Tebadorans on the ship will probably tell the Khersonian Blorg to just deal with it because times are tough all over.

 

[skillincarnate]

Yeah I was thinking more "Captains X, Y, and Z seduced by the separatists have defected and taken their loyal battle groups with them."

 

[UpperLorraine]

So, now rebelling planets spawn ships

While I agree that they shouldn't just magically have military ships sitting around, that could also be taken as civilian vessels being converted for military use. Maybe they could have some little penalty applied in consideration of that?

 

[GC13]

While I agree that they shouldn't just magically have military ships sitting around, that could also be taken as civilian vessels being converted for military use. Maybe they could have some little penalty applied in consideration of that?

If a penalty was applied to their combat effectiveness there would just need to be more of them, and they're already spawning more ships than the planet can likely afford to maintain.

Rebels in a Paradox game will always be ridiculous because in the real world rebels will always be crushed unless the government they are fighting is utterly dysfunctional, whereas in a game there's no point in the rebellion proccing unless there's something for you as a player to do. Since that thing will probably be to select your fleet, send them to the planet, then select an army group and send them to the planet once orbit is clear, rebels need to be strong since because there are no choices for you to make they must be powerful enough to require a noticeable investment in a fleet to take them on.

That's why I'd prefer most rebellions to stay as insurgencies. Sending in the fleet and the army to crush a rebellion is only a choice if I'm already in a difficult war (and even then, what's stopping me from coming to retake the rebellious planet at my first convenience?) isn't a choice, whereas having the option to either anger sympathetic Pops or drain resources as my armies take losses is a choice. If there was some kind of manpower limit and a rudimentary productive capacity dictating your ability to field armies or ships, added in a later DLC, you might come to the horns of an interesting dilemma. As it is though, rebellions are just busywork; normally you'll be happy when the rebellion procs, because you'll rapidly retake the planet and won't have to put up with faction notifications from them for a while.

 

[UpperLorraine]

If a penalty was applied to their combat effectiveness there would just need to be more of them, and they're already spawning more ships than the planet can likely afford to maintain.

Rebels in a Paradox game will always be ridiculous because in the real world rebels will always be crushed unless the government they are fighting is utterly dysfunctional, whereas in a game there's no point in the rebellion proccing unless there's something for you as a player to do. Since that thing will probably be to select your fleet, send them to the planet, then select an army group and send them to the planet once orbit is clear, rebels need to be strong since because there are no choices for you to make they must be powerful enough to require a noticeable investment in a fleet to take them on.

That's why I'd prefer most rebellions to stay as insurgencies. Sending in the fleet and the army to crush a rebellion is only a choice if I'm already in a difficult war (and even then, what's stopping me from coming to retake the rebellious planet at my first convenience?) isn't a choice, whereas having the option to either anger sympathetic Pops or drain resources as my armies take losses is a choice. If there was some kind of manpower limit and a rudimentary productive capacity dictating your ability to field armies or ships, added in a later DLC, you might come to the horns of an interesting dilemma. As it is though, rebellions are just busywork; normally you'll be happy when the rebellion procs, because you'll rapidly retake the planet and won't have to put up with faction notifications from them for a while.

You make some fair points, but last time I watched the news, I saw very sophisticated rebellions that maybe unfold slower than their speed in Paradox titles(BAM!).

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

I am more concerned atm with the fact that if you are at war with nation 1 and rebels break of from nation 1 and you want to help the rebels, you are at war with them still.

This is probably the least-worst scenario. Consider the alternative:

"Sir, the enemy are facing huge rebellions throughout the Traxis Badlands as a result of the war going poorly."

"Excellent. Send in the fleets."

"We can't, sir. The rebel factions are neutral to us so we can't enter their borders."

"Well, can we at least attack the loyalist planets?"

"No, sir. The rebels are in the way. We're cut off."

"Can we make peace? They'll probably be desperate for peace and might acquiesce to our demands."

"Well, sir, the systems we wanted to take are all now under rebel control, so the loyalists can't surrender them to us."

"So what can we do?"

"We can make a white peace, I suppose, sir, or we can wait for their civil war to end and hope that the rebels lose."

"Why would we hope that the rebels lose?"

"If they win, sir, then they'll be neutral to us and so we won't be able to press any war goals at all."

"Bah! It couldn't be worse."

"It could be worse, sir. The loyalists could just hide behind the rebels and take the time to rebuild until they can rival us again; or worse, they can gain ticking warscore from our failure to achieve our war goals."

"BAH!"

 

[Cyridius]

Gameplay over realism, folks. It may seem odd that a rebel planet has a fleet, but it makes perfect sense in context of the game.

 

[UpperLorraine]

Gameplay over realism, folks. It may seem odd that a rebel planet has a fleet, but it makes perfect sense in context of the game.

But the gameplay can mask itself to create the illusion of realism. The two do not have to conflict, now less than ever.

 

[Misiok]

I think the rebels should spawn an amount of ships equivalent to a small % of your total active fleet to make it more balanced so you can actually defeat it and because it makes sense that if you can keep a big fleet, then it makes sense for civilians to be able to have ships of their own too, so either steal or refurbish civvie ships for combat roles. And I think they should get a rebel ground army that is like, a bit weaker than your default army, but with time stabilizes (to simulate them gaining experience).

Just my theorycrafting though.

 

[ahhheygao]

My main problem was that the rebels magically start off with two battleships each even though 1.) the original space llamas didn't appear to have battleships to begin with when the Blorgs skirmished them earlier, and 2.) due to some weird update bug, the Blorgs couldn't even construct cruisers anymore in their spaceport, let alone battleships. It'd make much more sense if the rebels actually use a fraction of the main species' fleet composition (even CK2 had such a mechanic) or at the very least give the rebels large numbers of smaller ships.

 

[Koopatin]

well planets are big things... I just assume they build the ships in a nice cave down there because they planned to rebel anyhow.

 

[GC13]

Gameplay over realism, folks. It may seem odd that a rebel planet has a fleet, but it makes perfect sense in context of the game.

I've already said why I don't feel this current model of rebellion makes for good gameplay. You're either strong enough to take your planet back or you aren't, and even if you aren't there's absolutely nothing stopping you from getting stronger and coming back later. There is absolutely nothing the rebels can do except wait for you, and once the rebellion fires it's completely separate from the diplomacy and Pop systems (which are what set Stellaris apart from the other space strategy games).

 

[Misiok]

Then how about make obliterating rebels give you very bad PR and bad relations even with allies that have a bit different ethics and such? Make it a long lasting choice so it's not just a time waster to reclaim your lost planets and be a no-brainer.

 

[GC13]

Then how about make obliterating rebels give you very bad PR and bad relations even with allies that have a bit different ethics and such? Make it a long lasting choice so it's not just a time waster to reclaim your lost planets and be a no-brainer.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'd recommend: in the insurgency phase you could end it by using extreme, harsh measures (as well as plenty of troops), but just like using that Purge button you're going to have people to answer to. If the rebels are openly fielding armies against you though, then that's probably fair game. Other empires could, of course, choose to take offense, but at that point they're taking sides in a conventional war rather than tut-tutting as someone polices their own territory aggressively.

 

[Voidlord]

I reckon that if a Trade DLC is brought in, the rebels use Freighters as Ad-hoc warships till they have something better to use. Perhaps use them with some warships that defected but the bulk should be refitted freighters...