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Subai

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As the title says. The rebel tech makes no sense. I play as Kongo. I am westernized and I am nearly up to date in military tech. No other southern African power is westernized. So can anyone tell why those freaking patriots of Nupe oder Mossi (etc.) are ahead in Military tech? How? Why? That makes absolutely no sense. And it is frustrating when you lose against a 20 stack with a one star general while you have the same general and 25-30 stacks and lose....why can't we ever get a well gooing rebel system? :angry:

So now. Back to game and try getting rid of those rebels...
 

bbqftw

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if rebels don't inherit tech then they are pretty much irrelevant, especially with any western start or westernized ROTW.
 

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What tech SHOULD they be?

If they're whatever is "current" they will obliterate ROTW when they don't keep current on their own tech. If they keep to some standard (current for Western, close for Eastern, further behind as you go) it becomes totally gamey to where being ahead on tech as ROTW makes rebels a joke, while falling behind for any reason a nightmare. If they keep the tech of the former nation, what happens when you tech up but dead nations obviously do not, they simply are parked at that old tech level and end up being marginalized in their ability to revolt as time goes on?

The simplest solution is for rebels to have the same military tech as the nation who owns the province in which they are rebelling. This means they won't spawn with OP tactics that cannot be touched, eg rebels revolting in a seized western-tech colony, and they also won't be totally trivialized and useless, eg rebels in 1530 with the flag of a nation you removed from the game in 1450 when they were mil tech 4.

Now, if espionage let you give rebels higher tech if yours exceeded the target you're supported rebels in, that I could live with. Simply making rebels spawn with wild disparity such that they could be unbeatable or total chumps? No thanks.
 

Subai

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if rebels don't inherit tech then they are pretty much irrelevant, especially with any western start or westernized ROTW.

What tech SHOULD they be?

If they're whatever is "current" they will obliterate ROTW when they don't keep current on their own tech. If they keep to some standard (current for Western, close for Eastern, further behind as you go) it becomes totally gamey to where being ahead on tech as ROTW makes rebels a joke, while falling behind for any reason a nightmare. If they keep the tech of the former nation, what happens when you tech up but dead nations obviously do not, they simply are parked at that old tech level and end up being marginalized in their ability to revolt as time goes on?

The simplest solution is for rebels to have the same military tech as the nation who owns the province in which they are rebelling. This means they won't spawn with OP tactics that cannot be touched, eg rebels revolting in a seized western-tech colony, and they also won't be totally trivialized and useless, eg rebels in 1530 with the flag of a nation you removed from the game in 1450 when they were mil tech 4.

Now, if espionage let you give rebels higher tech if yours exceeded the target you're supported rebels in, that I could live with. Simply making rebels spawn with wild disparity such that they could be unbeatable or total chumps? No thanks.

You got me wrong. I know they have to be better otherwise they're useless.
My problem was that they were better than mine.
I was 6 months away from (i think) tech 15. E.g. there you get Military tactics +0.5. So my army had 1.5 but the rebel stack had 2.0. That means they already had that level which I had not researched yet. My army got crushed about that. So that was my question. How can it be that the rebel stack had a better tech level than I had?

Another problem that comes with this discussion: I feel like rebels in colonies shouldbe a bit easier than in Europe. Espacially Africa with Sunni religion is the hell on earth related to what you get out of it. If you play EU4 in a more optimized way than in a roleplay style you will ignore Africa. The effort to hold this part of the world is not worth the try. If you use those recources and time in Europe the reward will be way bigger. Not that of a problem but I don't like it anyway.
 

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While the rebel system has many flaws, remember that the game doesn't even attempt to model proper logistics, allowing European powers to drop tens of thousands of men in Africa, Asia, or the New World whenever they feel like it. In the absence of a more realistic logistics model where you can't simply deploy 90% of your army from mainland Europe to Asia because you fancy some Indian provinces, I'm not particularly bothered by it. The game doesn't model the difficulties in keeping provinces on the other side of the world under control, so at the very least the rebels that do spawn need to pose something resembling a threat.
 

Subai

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While the rebel system has many flaws, remember that the game doesn't even attempt to model proper logistics, allowing European powers to drop tens of thousands of men in Africa, Asia, or the New World whenever they feel like it. In the absence of a more realistic logistics model where you can't simply deploy 90% of your army from mainland Europe to Asia because you fancy some Indian provinces, I'm not particularly bothered by it. The game doesn't model the difficulties in keeping provinces on the other side of the world under control, so at the very least the rebels that do spawn need to pose something resembling a threat.

Yes you are right about that. Excat as the other posts here.
But my mainpPoint direct into another direction.
First: How could it have been that the rebel stack had a better tech than I had, while I was the techleader of Africa (as described above)
Second: In a game you should get rewards for what you do even when they are not that realistic (otherwise EU4 would be very very boring). So I feel like especially Africa and also other parts of the world are just not worth conquering except because of the right feeling.
It is easy to go to your neighbour in Europe and take what was his. But if you decide to get those lands in Africa or Asia you will get a smaller reward, more problems and more time consuming. So why should I do that. Even the only really profitable colonial adventures in history like spice and cotton and slaves make no real difference in EU4.
I know it is not that easy to change while making it not op. But can't we talk about ways to improve? -> But I'm more interested in the first Point. How can rebels be better than my army when it comes to tech?
 

Jomini

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While the rebel system has many flaws, remember that the game doesn't even attempt to model proper logistics, allowing European powers to drop tens of thousands of men in Africa, Asia, or the New World whenever they feel like it. In the absence of a more realistic logistics model where you can't simply deploy 90% of your army from mainland Europe to Asia because you fancy some Indian provinces, I'm not particularly bothered by it. The game doesn't model the difficulties in keeping provinces on the other side of the world under control, so at the very least the rebels that do spawn need to pose something resembling a threat.

Sorry, but you could easily deploy the entire French Army to India. Napoleon who was the finest logistician of the age planned to march an army from Egypt to Mysore. He could have done it too. Because what did an army need in the field in this era? Food - pretty much impossible to move in quantities sufficient to feed the army from the rear. Shot - could be regularly scavenged and recast. Clothing - could be stolen on the way. Gunpowder - might actually be in the logistics train, but could also often be procured in the field.

This is an era of mobile warfare and forage, if you can get the men to India, you can certainly supply them. The only real constraint is how many hulls you can spare.

So why didn't European nations devote more than a fraction of their manpower to overseas conquest?
A. They didn't need to.
B. Depleting the home front was far too risky.

EUIV can never rerun history as long as you have things like heavy truce breaking penalties, long truce periods, and assured friendship between nations. An historical logistic system should make it easier to have the entire English army fighting in India than to have a third of it fighting in Bavaria.
 

yerm

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Napoleon overestimated his ability to handle logistics for distant campaigns. Given how well sacking Moscow turned out, I'm ever so dubious about his ability to march on southern India.

Modern armies need logistic trains. You can't just scavenge it. That works for a 13th century horde, not a 19th century nation.
 

bbqftw

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I was 6 months away from (i think) tech 15. E.g. there you get Military tactics +0.5. So my army had 1.5 but the rebel stack had 2.0. That means they already had that level which I had not researched yet. My army got crushed about that. So that was my question. How can it be that the rebel stack had a better tech level than I had?
You get a 25% tactics penalty for having too much cavalry compared to infantry
 

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Napoleon overestimated his ability to handle logistics for distant campaigns. Given how well sacking Moscow turned out, I'm ever so dubious about his ability to march on southern India.

Modern armies need logistic trains. You can't just scavenge it. That works for a 13th century horde, not a 19th century nation.

Tell that to Grant. He learned on the way to Vicksburg that big armies could in fact live off the land, and it was an instrumental lesson that led toward winning the war.

Obviously many conditions need apply for such things to work, and Napoleon sitting the entire French army in India sounds far fetched.

With enough boats and free reign of the sea, could he do it? Well sure probably, but that's not a hypothesis based on realistic terms.
 

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That is because rebels only partially fought on the battlefield. For the most they used guerrilla tactics and other things to disturb the administrations and economy. It wasn't tech. Tech didn't play such a big role during most of EU4, tactics did. You can still see that on todays battlefields. Knowing the terrain, having the support of the local population, that is most important.


In EU4 this is represented as a stack of soldiers. While they could do a lot more, making attrition really high in rebellious provinces, unless you took action, which in turn would hurt the economy of the provinces, increase resentment or cause people to flee, making other nations hate you more (nations sympathetic to the rebels). And those sorts of things.
 

Jomini

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Napoleon overestimated his ability to handle logistics for distant campaigns. Given how well sacking Moscow turned out, I'm ever so dubious about his ability to march on southern India.

Modern armies need logistic trains. You can't just scavenge it. That works for a 13th century horde, not a 19th century nation.

Sherman would beg to differ. The need for massive logistics support is a modern phenomena that arose from technological development:
1. Jacketed bullets. When you can cast round shot in a sand crucible, bullets are easy to recycle. When they require a machine press, they need to be dragged along behind you.
2. Specialized artillery. Early cannon were mostly just long metal tubes, modern breach loading artillery were far more complicated beasts that required inordinately more tools and spare parts. Additionally once you start losing interchangeability of propellant your logistical burden goes up again.
3. Massive increases in rates of fire. Napoleonic soldiers might carry 80 rounds per soldier. That was still only enough for maybe 30 minutes of sustained fire in the era, but with even the slowest bolt actions you will burn through that in a third of the time.
4. Communications. Napoleon mastered the semaphore and the "march separately, fight together" doctrine, but with the telegraph and later radio, battles became affairs measured in days or weeks. With these longer battles you starting need more and more men, munitions, and spares.

And lastly the mother of all logistical problems:
Fuel.

When you have an army on foot, you just need food. Assuming there are peasants nearby, well they can be robbed a few times. Pretty much literally anywhere worth fighting over there was food for at least the first pass by. If you have horses, then you need fodder or a lot of grass & time to feed them (this is part of the reason no army of the era ever carried food for more than a fraction of the campaign at any given time). Once you get to railroads you are looking at having to move masses of coal (though lumber can work in a pinch) and with internal combustion engines - petroleum products. Logistics simply weren't that bad in the EU era.

You had food - couldn't carry enough to ever feed your army so the availability of food determined war goals (literally the Sun King had to go siege his 3rd priority target because the first two had been picked clean the proceeding campaign seasons). Lead - very easy to recast and well you could often rob the peasants or the churches. Gunpowder - most of the time you bought it from the land you were crossing (e.g. when the French invaded the Netherlands they bought all their gunpowder from Amsterdam), but this and artillery were actually in the supply train (and yes that often meant getting forage for the horses). That's it. Eventually you'd need footwear, but you could often get by without proper shoes or boots (hence why the Russians maintain to this day some idiotic footwear that doesn't require cobblers in use). Eventually you'd need shirts and pants, but again robbing peasants solves so many logistical issues. Paying the army, well again there are peasants to loot (as you know many if not most of the soldiers in the EU era weren't formally paid).

Lastly, before we get all gung-ho about realistic logistics, let's just remember how terrible overland transport (e.g. for cannons) actually was. Britain had an easier time supplying artillery to New Orleans and India direct from London than it did getting cannons to anything in the interior of Spain or France. France, for that matter, could more easily supply forces in Italy than in Navarre. Basically as long as you didn't have something like the Royal Navy interdicting you, you could just about anywhere in the world along the coast easier than you could go 50 miles inland. I mean there is a reason why Gustavus Adolphus serpentined all across central Germany following the rivers; moving his artillery overland would have been a death sentence. When a general completely surrenders strategic initiative, you might realize that realistic logistics would not make invading China harder, China would be about the same ... invading France would get a lot harder.
 
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Krajzen

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Jomini, please design hardcore strategy one day. Reading this made me really, really wanna engage in hardcore tactical/strategical game from EU4 period where you would have to sit and calculate how to maintain troops and transport cannons via rivers and seas. Hell, it could be even pure logistics simulator :D

I wanna outwit my enemy using semaphore and mobile bullet manufacturing.
 

VolitionNewlove

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I suppose I'd like to see something along the lines of province technology levels. How that will affect the game on a performance level, I am unsure.
 
Last edited:

Path

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No, just.... no. I don't even...

The game makes no effort at all to depict the actual problems faced by modern armies in tropical/desert/arctic conditions. Heck, in temperate Europe armies suffered horrific attrition while campaigning in friendly territory, historically. The French expedition to Haiti was destroyed completely without significant armed opposition, and the 'Slow Death' made Spanish troops in North Africa desert to the Turks even in peacetime. I shudder every time I see a 30k stack get dropped off to fight indigenous tribes in the Yucatan or even North America, and take no attrition at all.