Rebalancing the AoD economy - Resizing merchant fleets

[Mattias]

Some important merchant fleets are too small in-game to facilitate a well functioning world market as well as reflecting their historical sizes (Source: Lloyd's Register of Shipping via the statistical yearbook 1938-39 from the League of Nations, and the Australian statistical yearbook 1940).

In the 1936 (1.07) scenario the fleets of the following big/medium powers should be increased when compared to their real sizes 1936, one transport is equivalent with 10 000 gross tonnes:
Canada 136 (was 35)
Germany 372 (was 160)
United Kingdom 1728 (was 1000)
USA 1248 (was 240!)

Other, small, nations are:
Denmark 114 (was 60)
Greece 180 (was 60)
Norway 405 (!) (was 200)
Sweden 152 (was 75)
Yugoslavia 37 (was 24)

Some nations (The Netherlands, Italy, Japan, Poland, Portugal) should be decreased as well but I dont think it's as important for the gameplay as increasing esp. Canada, Germany, the UK and USA.

Comments? /Mattias

 

[Iberville]

Interesting proposals.

Not sure what to think, but just giving you feedbacks: remember that CONVs also cost Manpower and are used to supply units by sealanes so this has effects. Usually UK/USA have to spend some ICs and MPs expanding their CONVs fleet, your new numbers will eliminate this need and make their lot a bit easier.

Let us know how this plays out!

PS: are 'too' small

 

[Serenissima]

I agree with this idea - national advantages (and disadvantages) ought to be in the game more accurately.

 

[Mattias]

Bigger US merchant fleet makes world market function much better

When I have playtested with increased merchant fleets especially the US and Canada (and to a lesser extent Germany and the UK) makes much more trade agreements with other nations. The most obvious effect of this is to even out resource-distribution and limiting stacking of raw-material. This also strenghtens both the German, US, Canadian and UK economies (because of the money gained via the trades) and the nations buying their goods.

The second effect is even more important - a well functioning world-market enables a rebalanced, realistic production of energy, metal and rares based on real production-figures. I have tried this with energy, because IRL it was (and is) very unevenly distributed around the globe. It worked very well and simulated real-world considerations for nations like Spain, IRL VERY hesitant to join the Axis because of their very big dependence upon imported goods for it's economy to function. /Mattias

 

[Iberville]

the US and Canada (and to a lesser extent Germany and the UK) makes much more trade agreements with other nations

Interesting...

Is your second paragraph meaning you are now remapping the resources?

 

[Alex_brunius]

The reason why it doesn't really work to make the number historical is because many ships were used in international freight, not just for bringing materials home to their country of origin/registry.

If for example alot of Norwegian and Greece ships are used to export resources to UK historically, that means they have to be UK ships in AoD.
The same can be said for any other nation, say Canadian ships exporting to Japan.



To make it work the developers would have to implement a peacetime market for "renting" out your merchant marine to other nations and serve their trading needs.

 

[PB-DK]

i agree with the OP, merchant fleets should be increased to the above numbers

(also the chinese region should get a lot more resources to the area's to keep them alive)

 

[Pang Bingxun]

(also the chinese region should get a lot more resources to the area's to keep them alive)

Do you think that the resource production in china should be increased? China has much more resources that can be used by the low IC available at the beginning. But if you build up the economy you soon reach a point where importing resouces becomes necessary.

 

[PB-DK]

Do you think that the resource production in china should be increased? China has much more resources that can be used by the low IC available at the beginning. But if you build up the economy you soon reach a point where importing resources becomes necessary.

one of the major flaws china has is actually a lack of resources if they lose access to sea trade and also many of the resource producing area's are in the east so after Japan manages to close off sea trade and get the eastern resource areas china will fall with very little trouble unless played by a human with a particular taste for history as china simply collapses under the weight of the number of divisions particular expeditionary forces since the (limited) industry that can be moved west will be unable to support the army due to mainly lack of resources and TC.

also china is a net importer of resources which in itself poses little trouble until cut off from trade but would hardly be called anything like historical

area's that could use a boost would be;
Kunming, yunnan (1307) has resources for 6 ic but would be needing at least the double to be able to support china with resources
chengdu & Chungqing which would be the last bastion of china would also need a boost
Lanzhou too

i have not found many sources and even fewer details on production and extraction of resources but those areas i have pointed out are all sites of major resource extraction today

 

[stevep]

The reason why it doesn't really work to make the number historical is because many ships were used in international freight, not just for bringing materials home to their country of origin/registry.

If for example alot of Norwegian and Greece ships are used to export resources to UK historically, that means they have to be UK ships in AoD.
The same can be said for any other nation, say Canadian ships exporting to Japan.



To make it work the developers would have to implement a peacetime market for "renting" out your merchant marine to other nations and serve their trading needs.

Alex

That seems to imply that Britain is grossly under-estimated compared to actual history if the shortfall Mattias mentioned also includes a number of other nations fleets used by the UK?

Steve

 

[Alex_brunius]

Alex

That seems to imply that Britain is grossly under-estimated compared to actual history if the shortfall Mattias mentioned also includes a number of other nations fleets used by the UK?

Steve

It was only an example. I have no idea if that was the actual case, It could just as well have been the other way around.

My point was that in the real world a ship registered in nation X could be used to ship resources between nations Y and Z. It's even possible to have a nation without any merchant ships of their own in the real world that just hire foreign ships for all their needs. That nation would be crippled in AoD without any possibility to ship at all if we just use historical numbers.

It would be better to find numbers for actual tonnage imported by sea, and use those for balance instead.

But even that method does have weaknesses. For example it doesn't include the length of trade routes (which AoD do). And it doesn't at all include the fact that real economy imports are totally different then those in AoD, nor does it include shipping needs to overseas troops in the extent convoys in AoD are used for that purpose.

 

[froglegs]

One flaw in the game has always (HOI 2 2005 on) been that you cannot give/trade an ally merchant ships if they need them. I have played as USA and seen Britain run short of convoy ships and been unable to do anything about it. IRL they would have either given them some, lent them sone, or built them some convoy ships.

 

[Mattias]

It's quite possible to import goods without (own) ships

Don't forget it's still possible to import needed goods without national shipping in HoI but in that case one is dependant upon someone else willing to initiate the trade (as IRL). This is why its so crippling when big net exporters like USA, UK and Germany lacks shipping tonnage they had IRL. Esp. the extreme US lack of ships prevents them from playing their role of world-market suppliers almost totally (and, as Froglegs noted, indirectly puts strain on the UK's shipping because they cant rely on the US to help supplying their allies).

It's true Norway and Greece can't use their shipping but I think they are the single cases. Some other nations might need some balancing as well but I dont think it will affect more than a few single nations (possible island-nations or poor European Empires with far flung colonies).

@ Von Iberville: Yes I have recalculated the Energy-production, but only on a pretty rough national level - with the emphasis on converting hydro-electric and other non coal energy sources, as natural gas, to coal-equivalents (tonnes of coal). /Mattias

 

[Alex_brunius]

Don't forget it's still possible to import needed goods without national shipping in HoI but in that case one is dependant upon someone else willing to initiate the trade (as IRL). This is why its so crippling when big net exporters like USA, UK and Germany lacks shipping tonnage they had IRL. Esp. the extreme US lack of ships prevents them from playing their role of world-market suppliers almost totally (and, as Froglegs noted, indirectly puts strain on the UK's shipping because they cant rely on the US to help supplying their allies).

I was under the impression that AoD worked like Hoi3 in this regard. That is the importer always has to supply the convoy ships?

Otherwise wouldn't it be possible to ship tons of material to UK as USA without Germany being to do a thing as long as USA stay out of the war?

Or for example neutral nations supplying Germany with resources?

 

[unmerged(151142)]

I think the idea is good to adjust convoy fleet sizes as proposed, but keep one thing in mind: the German player should be able to put UK naval trades at risk with his sub operations. In my last MP game my German opponent was able to sink 300+ convoys and I still had not much trouble. If you increase to number of trade vessels for the British it maybe also needs reworking submarine power?

 

[Count of Reval]

I was under the impression that AoD worked like Hoi3 in this regard. That is the importer always has to supply the convoy ships?

Otherwise wouldn't it be possible to ship tons of material to UK as USA without Germany being to do a thing as long as USA stay out of the war?

Or for example neutral nations supplying Germany with resources?

A trade agreement initiator is the one who should provide a sufficient amount of convoy ships to open a naval trade route. So a country can indeed participate in over-sea trade interactions even without a single transport ship owned. (In addition, as known, a country can also receive economic help in a form of free resources from its allies.)

I think the idea is good to adjust convoy fleet sizes as proposed, but keep one thing in mind: the German player should be able to put UK naval trades at risk with his sub operations. In my last MP game my German opponent was able to sink 300+ convoys and I still had not much trouble. If you increase to number of trade vessels for the British it maybe also needs reworking submarine power?

Maybe a Convoy Raiding combat order menu might include an option (a box that could be checked) to attack also neutral convoys if starving strategy targeted on some particular third country - say, UK - requires it (and sunk ships might decrease relations between the two countries involved)...

It would be nice if the problem of negative number of convoy ships would be solved in some future patch. Then maybe it might be even possible that someone interested in those sort of things might consider to mod a Battle of Atlantic battle scenario for a submarine warfare addicts for a quick one-evening play?

 

[vitality]

A trade agreement initiator is the one who should provide a sufficient amount of convoy ships to open a naval trade route. So a country can indeed participate in over-sea trade interactions even without a single transport ship owned. (In addition, as known, a country can also receive economic help in a form of free resources from its allies.)



Maybe a Convoy Raiding combat order menu might include an option (a box that could be checked) to attack also neutral convoys if starving strategy targeted on some particular third country - say, UK - requires it (and sunk ships might decrease relations between the two countries involved)...

It would be nice if the problem of negative number of convoy ships would be solved in some future patch. Then maybe it might be even possible that someone interested in those sort of things might consider to mod a Battle of Atlantic battle scenario for a submarine warfare addicts for a quick one-evening play?

This is a great idea!
An option for Unrestricted Submarine Warfare, addition to damaging the relation with the neutral country it should also slightly increase your belligerence every month.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

This is a great idea!
An option for Unrestricted Submarine Warfare, addition to damaging the relation with the neutral country it should also slightly increase your belligerence every month.

Or per sunk ship. And this may be activated by the existing naval doctrine Unrestricted Submarine Warfare Doctrine(8170).

 

[Count of Reval]

This is a great idea!
An option for Unrestricted Submarine Warfare, addition to damaging the relation with the neutral country it should also slightly increase your belligerence every month.

Or per sunk ship. And this may be activated by the existing naval doctrine Unrestricted Submarine Warfare Doctrine(8170).

Yes, this might be even better, technically less complex solution. A "cost" of the strategy might take a form of increased belligerence, which would depend on the number of neutral ships sunk (relying on ledger's combat loss figures).

 

[Fürstbischof]

I think the idea is good to adjust convoy fleet sizes as proposed, but keep one thing in mind: the German player should be able to put UK naval trades at risk with his sub operations. In my last MP game my German opponent was able to sink 300+ convoys and I still had not much trouble. If you increase to number of trade vessels for the British it maybe also needs reworking submarine power?

+1

This area of the game needs definitely more love. The Battle of the Atlantic has atm less importance for your war effort than it'd have.

# 0 - Dive Boat
model = {
cost = 2
buildtime = 90
defaultorganisation = 30
morale = 30
manpower = 0.2
maxspeed = 10
surfacedetectioncapability = 2
airdetectioncapability = 1
subdetectioncapability = 1
visibility = 10
seadefence = 1
airdefence = 4
seaattack = 2
convoyattack = 3
subattack = 1
airattack = 0
shorebombardment = 0
transportcapability = 0

range = 500
supplyconsumption = 0.3
fuelconsumption = 0.3
distance = 0.15
}

# 1 - Short-Range
# 2 - Medium-Range
# 3 - Long-Range

# 4 - Electro-Submarine
model = {
cost = 4
buildtime = 160
defaultorganisation = 30
morale = 30
manpower = 0.5
maxspeed = 18
surfacedetectioncapability = 4
airdetectioncapability = 1
subdetectioncapability = 3
visibility = 4
seadefence = 5
airdefence = 9
seaattack = 5
convoyattack = 9
subattack = 8
airattack = 1
shorebombardment = 0
transportcapability = 0

range = 3500
supplyconsumption = 0.7
fuelconsumption = 0.5
distance = 0.19
}

I don't know if it might be enough to simply rise the convoyattack of subs or if also their surfacedetectioncapability has to be improved. Only testing will give us some answers.