Rebalancing Idea Groups

[Aussiehawker]

Idea groups are not in a great spot. It feels like most games I'm taking the same ideas groups, and never taking some at all. And it's absurd to see pics of people taking groups like Maritime as like a fifth tree and start getting Innovativeness for being the first adopter. It's clear that ideas are supposed to cover a wide range of niches, but some really don't actually cover their niche properly.

So this can be a thread for suggesting rebalances for idea groups.

To start

Maritime ideas. One of the worst groups in the game. Even the fact that it has a decision unique to idea groups, Confirm Thalassocracy, doesn't stop it from being avoided.

+0.25 yearly navy tradition,
−10% light ship cost,
+1 merchants,
−5% diplomatic technology cost.

Of course, a part of this is the lack of value that the game has for naval warfare in general. But here are some ideas to make it better, without radically changing the game.

Coastal resupply - Unblockaded coastal forts have a -1 to attacker siege status progress, and garrisons can refill at a reduced rate unless an Assault is in progress. Coastal forts -25% maintenance cost.

This isn't a massive bonus, but it adds a way for naval forces to impact what happens on land. Naval powers won't be completely powerless to hold mainland provinces, with more time to redirect armies with forts. Effectively makes no blockade a -3 instead of a -2.

Command Flagships - May have multiple flagships (Flagships in the same fleet will not duplicate fleet wide bonuses. 1 per admiral/explorer after first starting one). +1 Leader without upkeep, −25% Admiral cost

This takes the Seahawks bonus, but gives it a bit more. Now your navy can have multiple flagships. Like a dedicated trade or pirate lightship, and a siege and naval battle heavy ship. More flagships takes investing your limited leader slots in having admirals, but at least these admirals give a bit more power, flexibility and flavour in having more flagships.

Onboard Marines - Ships have a set marine value inherent and can land a marine unit if there are enough sailors. Maybe also a fighting bonus for marines, and a reduced landing malus generally.

Ships can capture islands or invade coastal territory, without having to specifically pickup land units, or micro around marines. Of course, the number of ships will need to be high enough (maybe a ratio of sailors on ships convert to marines) to make it more effective to specifically build them.

But this means a naval power can make its influence felt on an unprotected coast line, and capture all these pesky islands in short order.

I feel these bonuses can be added, without reducing any of the existing bonuses, just shuffling them around in terms of order.


So feel free to comment on these, and make your own suggestions.

 

[Hezekiah]

Tying flagships to naval leader bonuses seems like a good boost for Maritime. The one flagship limit has felt too harsh since British Pirate Century.

I would like to see Maritime give some extra marine force limit and a bonus to marine combat ability. Some sort of marine artillery or an ability for ships to support coastal marines would be helpful too. Marines need more love in general, so I would like to see more useful ways to invest in them for sea powers.

Maritime might be more useful if it also had bonuses to trade and ship tradepower. It could unlock additional merchant policies related to naval warfare too, like a ship repair bonus in occupied ports where you have a merchant or simple naval morale. Additional merchant policies seem like a relatively simple way to add small but useful bonuses.

 

[annulen]

I think naval combat bonuses are not really useful, because in war you should either have substantial numeric superiority or avoid engagement. Thus, improvement of non-combat bonuses and bonuses with strong non-combat effects (e.g increasing naval traditions and force limit can significantly boost trade income) can make naval groups more relevant.

For example, I think it would be great if either Maritime or Naval had bonus for naval leader maneuver. It's not that important for combat, but it's really useful for trade protection, privateering, decreasing attrition in long distance sails or exploration missions, or just making ships reach destination faster. Yeah, there are two policies giving that, Maritime + Innovative and Maritime+Offensive, however other bonuses of both policies are combat oriented and thus not much useful.

 

[PedroLuiz]

Command Flagships - May have multiple flagships (Flagships in the same fleet will not duplicate fleet wide bonuses. 1 per admiral/explorer after first starting one). +1 Leader without upkeep, −25% Admiral cost

perhaps you could make it so that each 1 admiral can hold one flagship? that way you can't have 2 flagships in the same fleet

Onboard Marines - Ships have a set marine value inherent and can land a marine unit if there are enough sailors. Maybe also a fighting bonus for marines, and a reduced landing malus generally.

Ships can capture islands or invade coastal territory, without having to specifically pickup land units, or micro around marines. Of course, the number of ships will need to be high enough (maybe a ratio of sailors on ships convert to marines) to make it more effective to specifically build them.

that would be awesome

Tying flagships to naval leader bonuses seems like a good boost for Maritime. The one flagship limit has felt too harsh since British Pirate Century.

For example, I think it would be great if either Maritime or Naval had bonus for naval leader maneuver. It's not that important for combat, but it's really useful for trade protection, privateering, decreasing attrition in long distance sails or exploration missions, or just making ships reach destination faster. Yeah, there are two policies giving that, Maritime + Innovative and Maritime+Offensive, however other bonuses of both policies are combat oriented and thus not much useful.

it's weird that they removed that (they used to give you +2 maneuver for Maritime)

I would like to see Maritime give some extra marine force limit and a bonus to marine combat ability. Some sort of marine artillery or an ability for ships to support coastal marines would be helpful too. Marines need more love in general, so I would like to see more useful ways to invest in them for sea powers.

those seem the kind of thing that belongs more on Naval ideas than Maritime ideas



For my own ideas, I think that

1. Naval ideas should give you +1 siege when blockaded, -50% Barrage cost, and/or perhaps count some of the cannons from a fleet as artillery for a siege
2. Marine force limit from Naval Ideas should be 20% instead of 10%
3. Boarding Parties and Naval Cadets should be Merged/Removed because nobody cares about leader pips except siege
4. Remove Improved Rams and Oak Forests for Ships because their bonuses really useful
5. Give a -10% shipbuilding time to Ship's penny as well

 

[annulen]

because nobody cares about leader pips except siege

Eh, who cares about siege pips? If you don't have enough siege power you just add one more transport to blockade fleet, and you don't really need 100% to speed up coast fort sieging as they are blockaded in the first place. Maneur pip is the only one that matters. Fire/shock are nice for battle admiral, but it's already easy to get them with high tradition.

 

[PedroLuiz]

Eh, who cares about siege pips? If you don't have enough siege power you just add one more transport to blockade fleet, and you don't really need 100% to speed up coast fort sieging as they are blockaded in the first place. Maneur pip is the only one that matters. Fire/shock are nice for battle admiral, but it's already easy to get them with high tradition.

My bad, I meant land siege pips, I was thinking of offensive ideas and their leader pips and forgot naval siege pips even existed lol but you are correct

 

[annulen]

Sure, land siege pip is the king. I usually try to have one battle general with high fire and shock, one siege general and one maneur general, but it's always welcome if everyone has siege pips

 

[Hezekiah]

Naval or Maritime could allow all ship types to transport regiments so navally invested nations don't need to waste force limit on transports. (I'd really like to merge light ships and transport ships in general, but all ships should be able to carry troops.)

Naval or Maritime should allow you to blockade straits without controlling both sides of the strait.

Maritime really needs trade bonuses. I would like to add a bit of "naval goods produced" for fish, salt, and whatnot, ship trade power for all ship types, unique trade company investments, and construction cost discounts for naval force limit buildings, sailor buildings, and sailor manufactories.

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Administrative. I have seen others mention that Administrative ideas could benefit by splitting out the mercenary ideas and putting in more state administration ideas. Mercenary ideas could become a new idea group or, as I prefer, get added to a more underwhelming idea group like Aristocratic.

Religious should get a policy or idea to convert through religious zeal and trade companies. Religious could probably use another missionary or two from ideas and policies.

Economic could probably afford to lose some development cost reduction and gain instead a modifier that lessens the scaling penalty for developing highly developed provinces. Maybe it could encourage prosperity growth.

Expansion should gain a bonus to trade power from forts in Trade Company provinces. This would help to represent factories. Expansion should also gain a trade company upgrade cost reduction.

Humanist is strong and has strong policies. I'd like to remove the "Benevolence" bonus to improving relations and instead give a reduced base penalty toward relations with heretics and heathens.

Innovative is a mixed idea group that seems to lack a strong focus in spite of strong policies. I don't like to take it. Maybe it could improve advisor quality, monarch quality, and military leader quality. Maybe it could even have a mechanism to get the advisor you prefer.

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Diplomatic is strong and doesn't seem to need help.

Espionage has a specific focus, and it succeeds at the focus, but the benefits of the group seem rather weak. I don't like waiting to fabricate claims, and with the casus bellis granted by mission trees, good government reforms, and religious ideas, espionage never feels necessary and rarely seems useful. I'd like to disable advanced spy actions against my country, but that would also seem to undermine the group. I don't know how to improve Espionage. Maybe it could be removed in favor of a new idea group.

Exploration fulfills its purpose well. I'd like to get rid of the "Free Colonies" modifier since expelling minorities is a feature I'd like to remove. A bonus to naval tradition could replace it. A general purpose movement bonus to armies and navies or generals and admirals, ("Cartographic Traditions"), could also replace "Free Colonies".
A marine reinforcement bonus could be a good policy if marines are tied to naval maintenance instead of army maintenance, since the marines could represent overseas garrisons.

Influence is strong and doesn't seem to need help. Adding a diplomat to the group might be too much, but I'd like "Tribute System" to act more like "Divert Trade". Perhaps the idea "Marcher Lords" could affect the abilities of marches instead of the overlord nation. I do think that Influence should allow nations to change marches to vassals and to change colony type with reduced or no penalty.

Trade ideas feel a lot weaker since we can make far more trade companies than in the past. Maybe trade could get a bonus to promoting mercantilism or even ticking yearly mercantilism.

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As a general rule for military idea groups, I would like to add +1 leader. I realize this could be too powerful, but having more leaders is very useful in my experience.

Aristocratic. As mentioned earlier, I'd like to put mercenary bonuses here from Administrative ideas.

Divine, Horde, and Indigenous seem fine.

Plutocratic does its job well. Maybe it could also inherit mercenary bonuses from Administrative ideas.

Defensive ideas seem a bit weak for a military group. Maybe defensive could help with devastation, war exhaustion, and unrest.

Offensive ideas are excellent.

Quality ideas are excellent, but they also discourage taking Naval and Maritime. Maybe quality could help with army drill gain and retention. It could even improve the benefits of drilling, which I generally consider wasteful. It might be worthwhile to remove discipline from this group. Increasing special unit force limit (including marines) could fit here too.

Quantity ideas are excellent.

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I'd like to see idea groups unlock merchant policies. This way, your merchants gain abilities based on the choices you make for your nation. For example, "Propagate Religion" could unlock by default for Islamic nations, but any nation that takes full Religious ideas could get that merchant policy too. Diplomatic ideas could unlock the relation improvement policy that is currently a default option. Naval could have a merchant policy that improves coastal sieges, Maritime could improve ship repair and ship trade power in that trade node, Espionage could give Aggressive Expansion reduction, and Trade itself could improve trade power or goods produced, for a few examples.

It might help Trade if Trade was a prerequisite for any merchant policy at all, and additional merchant policies unlocked through ideas, sort of like national policies.

 

[annulen]

I'd like to get rid of the "Free Colonies" modifier since expelling minorities is a feature I'd like to remove.

I don't have DLC with expelling minorities, so I enjoy my settler chance +20% as a replacement Great bonus, please don't get rid of it.

Trade ideas feel a lot weaker since we can make far more trade companies than in the past. Maybe trade could get a bonus to promoting mercantilism or even ticking yearly mercantilism.

Trade is very powerful when taken by trade republic, if you think having 6 merchants in early game isn't worthy you underestimate the power of improved trade steering and caravan power. Ticking mercantilism would be a bad idea because it's not possible to decrease it later if you have troubles with colonies.

 

[Hezekiah]

I don't have DLC with expelling minorities, so I enjoy my settler chance +20% as a replacement Great bonus, please don't get rid of it.



Trade is very powerful when taken by trade republic, if you think having 6 merchants in early game isn't worthy you underestimate the power of improved trade steering and caravan power. Ticking mercantilism would be a bad idea because it's not possible to decrease it later if you have troubles with colonies.

I prefer to switch out of trade governments as soon as possible as I find the factions to be far too weak compared to estates. It is quite likely I have overlooked the power of trade ideas in certain circumstances.

 

[Aussiehawker]

I forgot from my initial post, to mention that I think Naval ideas should be removed. Everything about naval stuff uses Diplo points, except this one idea group. But you never pick it, because then your armies would be useless, and the way navies are set up in-game, they are not war winners. There really isn't a need for 2 idea groups about navies in the current state.

Government-based idea groups should be removed from military ideas. They should take points from all groups (maybe like 150-200) from each category for each idea. Its be good if they were integrated with government reforms more, and have more government-based ideas. Not just one for each government type.

This of course means more military groups, with these removed.

A diplomatic idea group should have minus war exhaustion for vassals. Often vassals get a ton of war exhaustion, if you chain wars, even if they aren't involved that much.

Administrative is way too good, but only for a couple of things. The merc stuff I find useless, its basically just the core creation and Governing capacity, with the tech cost, adviser and loans being okay but not super noticeable. The merc stuff should be spun off elsewhere, the governing capacity and core creation reduced, and add a bunch of stuff to do with state interactions, with like State edicts (which also need a general overhaul anyway) and Prosperity

Espionage should be able to fabricate claims on entire states, and doing so provides a siege bonus against forts in the area of the claim, and armies act as if they have one more maneuver pip than they do on provinces. Stuff like that, Espionage being like an idea where you prepare for conflict well in advance. I think it should pick up some of admins merc bonuses, lose some Diplo bonuses and be moved to the military group.

 

[annulen]

I forgot from my initial post, to mention that I think Naval ideas should be removed. Everything about naval stuff uses Diplo points, except this one idea group.

Using military points is not a bad thing, it's possible that player has excess of military points, and quality and quantity of land army is sufficient for chosen goals. But Naval group is just weak in comparison with its alternatives, for example bonuses from Plutocratic are useful for much more situations. Also, there is Quality which provides bonuses to ship durability, morale of navies, and artillery combat ability (which AFAIK improves damage done by ships), such quality improvement may be sufficient to fight strong enemy fleets, while land army also gets its share of boosts.

 

[annulen]

More on Naval. I claim than bonuses for sailors recovery speed and number are totally missing the point of this group. Number of sailors can only be an issue for a nation with 1-2 sea provinces which does absolutely no conquest (and even then it can be solved). But if you are so peaceful you don't need any naval combat bonuses, in case of war you should sit in docks and focus on defending your land. Such nation doesn't even need to build galleys or heavy ships. And if you are not playing pacifist, just conquer a few coastal provinces, build some docks in them if absolutely necessary.