Reason why fuel don't work well with the hoi4 supply system right now

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RikiBreeiki

First Lieutenant
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Apr 2, 2017
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Right now if you are 50% over your supply limit, your units start getting no fuel example when you click F4 if you need 15 supplies, but you have 8 avaliable because you need more than 12 supplies, you will not get any fuel( your tanks carry fuel tanks with them, you can check this by moving your mouse cursor to the barrel icon by clicking on a division in the field after your tank runs out of that, it will lose it's all stats including armor and piercing by 90% immediatly. ), now this may seem okay but here is the problem ;

upload_2019-3-28_11-56-1.png


look at the value ' control of incoming edge provinces, example if you push into a new supply zone, you will get a percentage of your non local supplies from the previous zone , the percentage is determined by what percentage of adjactent edge provinces you are controlling in the " new zone you have entered " this means if i enter a supply zone by taking a single province in it, that have 10 provinces bordering the supply zone i came from, i will get only 10% of the non local supplies from the previous zone, and i will get 10% of local supplies of the new zone i have entered,

now lets observe what happens in a practical scenario , a screenshot from a mp game but i know for a fact that due to AI mass assaulting in singleplayer, infra breaks more, and this happens a lot more ,

Here i present 2x40 width heavy tanks and 6x20 width infantry , with tanks running out of fuel rapidly, they have a logistics wizard marshall and a level 3 logistic company yet they have no fuel and they are about to suddenly lose 90% of their stats ;
upload_2019-3-28_11-59-39.png


How to observe the screenshot;
1-Red fuel barrell on top left means tank is out of fuel
2- At bottom left you can see that requeired supply is 7.71 and supported is 5.05 , so we are a little bit above 50%

Result= here is how our tank looks in battle due to being out of fuel suddenly due to lack of supply caused by not controlling edge provinces
upload_2019-3-28_12-2-18.png


So, what just happened is our tank run out of fuel and now lost 90% of it's all stats including armor which can be seen in screenshot , Due to the way how edge provinces work, right now it is not possible to do real breakthroughs, filled with massed groups ready to make an encirclement, because you will always run out of supplies due to broken infra, and not controlling edge provinces since you are entering a new supply zone, instead you got to take edges of supply zone else your tanks turn to potatoes this makes making encirclements super hard and incredibly risky since you are literaly risking losing all your tanks if you are even little above 50

this needs fixing, this is both horrible in SP where AI mass assaults and in MP where your enemy abuse the mechanics ,For gameplay reasons i would suggest following

Making it so it is easier to reach 100% supplies from previous zone, example if i control 1 out of 10 adjactent provinces to supply zone i came from, give me 20% supplies instead of 10% , ( this part was not moddable, this is why i saw need to make this post )

Also double fuel tanks of every unit so people dont make your tanks run out of fuel extremely quickly in 48 hours but instead in 96 hours , and you have chance to do actual encircelemnts, 48 hours of combat fuel is extremely low ,


here is how tank when have fuel looks in template designer ; , you can compare it's stats to what happens when you got no fuel 121 armor to 9 armor due to loss of equipment and lack of fuel
upload_2019-3-28_12-13-39.png
 
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Right now if you are 50% over your supply limit, your units start getting no fuel example when you click F4 if you need 15 supplies, but you have 8 avaliable because you need more than 12 supplies, you will not get any fuel( your tanks carry fuel tanks with them, you can check this by moving your mouse cursor to the barrel icon by clicking on a division in the field after your tank runs out of that, it will lose it's all stats including armor and piercing by 90% immediatly. ), now this may seem okay but here is the problem

Some more detail on how the loss of fuel happens. The Tanks bring fuel for 96 hours of movement ( meaning 48 hours of combat ) as specified in defines. If you don't like this it's pretty easy to increase so it gives more hours.

There is another defines specifying that the tanks fight without penalty until they go down to 25% fuel ( at which point the fuel barrel symbol turns red ), and from there on the penalty scales reaching it's maximum of 90% loss of stats when it is empty.


Do note that your Motorized in a tank division don't lose their stats when the division run out of fuel, because they only use trucks for movement, so they will only lose speed but otherwise work just like leg infantry would. This means you still have some chance to defend.

you will run out of fuel in 4 days assuming you are 25% over your supply limit
Are you sure that is how it works? When I tested my tanks were able to fight forever without losing fuel when I was ~20% over supply limit and for ~10 days when I was ~30% over supply limit.


I agree overall that the mechanics is too binary.
 
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I seem to be wrong, just tested carefully edited post ty for warning

IIRC, you can stay at 35% over of the supply consumption, and still maintain the fuel neutral status during the combat. At 136%+ you're losing fuel during combat.
 
IIRC, you can stay at 35% over of the supply consumption, and still maintain the fuel neutral status during the combat. At 136%+ you're losing fuel during combat.

Oh maybe I was wrong as well then. I seem to recall it was at ~30% but somewhere there :)

The difference between 130% supply capacity used and 150% supply capacity used might not seem like alot, but for Tanks in 1.6 it's life or death.
 
Then you have to build up the Infrastructure, Harbors, Synt. Factorys etc. like in the Pre-Versions.

The other Main-Things are:

1. Using the correct Reasearches from the Industrial Path

2. For every Army-Devision the Support Companys which are reducing the FUEL-Usage on the final stage up to 20 or 25 % (5% each Step).

3. The Fuel-Production and assignment. Normaly the Assignment is on yellow for each armed forces. 1/3 for Army, Navy and Airforce (mid assaginment). The Fuel Tanks get nothing.

So you have to reduce the use of Tanks and mobile / mechanised Infantry and using Cav. / Standardinfantry or reduce it from the other Armed Forces: Navy and Airforce to low Assignement (red).

Best thing is to give the Fuel Tanks more fuel and get them to 100 % before going to a war to have more fuel for such a situation.
 
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Then you have to build up the Infrastructure, Harbors, Synt. Factorys etc. like in the Pre-Versions as well as using the correct Reasearches from the Industrial Path and for the Army the Support Companys which are reducing the FUEL-Usage for every Devison up to 20 or 25 % maximum.

you can see that division consume little supplies( despite being a 40 width heavy tank with mechanized ), thats because soviets have logistics wizard field marshall and level 3 or 4 logistics companies ) on top of all have marshall 6 supply pips and a general with 6 supplies.

What you see in screenshot is because you dont control high amount of edge provinces, you get very little supplises no matter what from previous zone, and you run out of fuel in 2 days of combat and lose all stats, this makes making pockets etc impossible, pushing impossible if you are attacking a supply zone that border you with many provinces, to solve problem you have to not make pockets but simply swipe edge provinces .making it impossible to mae serious breakthroguhs and pushing and attempting to encircle people
 
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You have over a thousand heavy tanks in constant combat in a tiny area where the infrastructure has been shredded. There's no way that would have worked in the real world either. Throughput constraints on supply are real and binding.

Do what people did back then and design a lighter formation that gets the job done. There's a reason the US, German and Soviet armies all lowered the number of tanks in a given formation after getting some combat experience.

Did you go for deep battle? The supply grace and consumption reductions help a lot with exactly this scenario.
 
You have over a thousand heavy tanks in constant combat in a tiny area where the infrastructure has been shredded. There's no way that would have worked in the real world either. Throughput constraints on supply are real and binding.

Do what people did back then and design a lighter formation that gets the job done. There's a reason the US, German and Soviet armies all lowered the number of tanks in a given formation after getting some combat experience.

Did you go for deep battle? The supply grace and consumption reductions help a lot with exactly this scenario.

But dont you think if u push a single tile into a new supply zone, you should have supply for more than 2 tanks? about historical accuarcy, i got 720 heavy tanks out of fuel with very , very good supply reduction modifiers , in kursk there were around 10 times more ? i dont know the details but probably 2-3 times more,

Problem here is if i am not clear enough, if you push into a new supply zone , even a single tile , you lose all fuel on your tanks in 48 ig hours , assuming infra is badly damaged due to natural fighting, and cant even be repaired due to constant fighting.

About supply grace, fuel flow have nothing to do with supply grace, you can have 700 days of supply grace, -100% out of supply, and your tank will still lose 90% of it's stats including armor due to being out of fuel in 2 days if you are over 50% of the max supplies you can have in the zone, while it is not too broken broken thing is runing out of oil completely in 2 days despite having some supplies and losing 90% of all stats, along with reason being you taking a single new province, that is not in previous supply zone, i could take instead another province and put 10 heavy tanks into it and i would have no problems

in screenshot, germany can put 11 medium tank divisions while soviets can put only2 to battle, because soviets have just entered a new supply zone,

In 1.5.x 1.4.x this was not an issue, because you would care about supply grace, out of supply modifiers, and not running out of fuel in 48 hours because you have entered a supply zone with 2 tanks,

I tried depp batle, etc and this is the reason i made this post , if i were to just give tanks 10-20 days of fighting fuel with a mod , i would make deep battle pointless again, but i wanted to make it so that pushing into a new supply zone is not instant death of your tanks and i want people to actually be able to plan breakthroguh pushes instead of constantly swiping edges of supply zones before moving deep ( 3 provinces ) into the supply zone , i also saw a player asking about why his tanks become useless sometimes when he makes a small snake and noticed people were not aware of what is going on, i myself was not aware either till a week ago where we tried to sea lion uk and lost bunch of heavy tanks because we ran out of oil insanely quickly and enemy pure infantry with aa started piercing our heavy tanks and our tanks lost all stats

Last summary= that tank entered there 2 days ago and became a potato in 48 hours of fighting because it was more than 50% over supply . nothing to do with grace etc, and it was not really possible to take more than 1 province in the new supply zone due to terrain etc and reason it has no supplies is simply because of control of edge incoming provinces thing

i hope i have been more clear, (( i lose my mind quickly ))
 
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But dont you think if u push a single tile into a new supply zone, you should have supply for more than 2 tanks?

If those "tanks" are monster divisions with 520 heavy tanks each as well as full mechanized support, and if you also have 6 divisions of infantry to supply in the same area ( probably not small divisions either ), then no.
 
If those "tanks" are monster divisions with 520 heavy tanks each as well as full mechanized support, and if you also have 6 divisions of infantry to supply in the same area ( probably not small divisions either ), then no.
they are not that monstrous, about fuel usage of equipment ,it does not effect the speed we run out of fuel, here is supply consumption of the monster ;
upload_2019-3-28_19-11-35.png


it actually consumes far lower supply than typical tank ,
here is german tank
upload_2019-3-28_19-12-15.png


i really think i should be able to put more into 2 provinces, and atleast my tanks instantly should not be complete potatoes because my supply usage is not 15% lower , if i was controlling another edge province i would keep same amount of 6x20 widths and be able to put in 4 more heavy tanks

2.25 supplies vs 1.81 is not that big, and even if it consumed lower supplies, like if it consumer 1.81 like germans do, i would still be unable to put an extra tank in, i atleast would not run outof fuel, keep in mind germany can still even if consuming same amount of supplies as my tank put 11 into same zone, because he controls edge and i only control 1 edge

This is not a good game design itself, game is about to be about bombing infra, supply zone camping , and nothing else, since these two automaticly delete tanks
 
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Now compare those divisions to a historical tank division with at most 6 battalions ( 300 tanks ), mainly motorized infantry for support and that has the same supply consumption reduction bonuses as the Soviet example.
 
Now compare those divisions to a historical tank division with at most 6 battalions ( 300 tanks ), mainly motorized infantry for support and that has the same supply consumption reduction bonuses as the Soviet example.

Well i could have 20 widths and put 4 tanks instead of 2 , but does not change end outcome, because i am in a new supply zone, because i have taken a single tile in a new supply zone that borders my supply zone with more than 4 provinces, i have little supplies , and germany does not, he can put 11x40 width tanks while i can put 3x20s(4th will make me run out of supplies and make me lose horribly ) same goes for germany, if he wants to push he has exact same issues, , it does not even have to be an attempt to make an encircelemnt, i can just have 2 tanks randomly entering a new zone with 4 inf and run out of fuel
 
In how many situations in WW2 was over 5000 tanks from 22 Tank divisions concentrated in a small area for a breakthrough and succeed with it + had no issues with supplies or fuel deliveries?
 
In how many situations in WW2 was over 5000 tanks from 22 Tank divisions concentrated in a small area for a breakthrough and succeed with it + had no issues with supplies or fuel deliveries?

I checked a historical division, Artilerry consume just more supplies, there is also that, so historical divisions would make situation even worse , cavalry also dont perform much better than mech,

about how many times , i dont have knowledge on that but i know for a fact that in a situation where smoeone can put 5000 tanks into the battle, others were able to put more than 1000, this would not be a problem , i have only 1000 tanks there, well mb thats bit high since it is an 15-5 division, ( and not really I , i was not really soviets ),

Game portrays how many units can enter with combat width, but i will pass that, just googling tells me there were many instances of big tank battles not with 1000vs 1000 as you point out but still big enough to cointain around 1000 tanks and a few over 2000 ;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sedan_(1940)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raseiniai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Radzymin_(1944)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Prokhorovka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hannut
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Goodwood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_El_Alamein
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_El_Alamein *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Debrecen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brody_(1941) *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kalach *

keep in mind soviets have 24 of those 500 sized tanks , so 12.000 tanks deployed total

Again problem is if i am not clear enough, you dont have to be even attemping to make a breakthrough, you can move 10 kilometers and simply run out of oil ( not even supply just oil lol) , and your enemy wont have similiar issues but have 5 times more supplies, and there will never be pushings unless someone does a grim mistake,

my problem is with this.

about my wiki links, those are only tank vs tank battles and many battles are not included like stalingrad etc
 
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look at the value ' control of incoming edge provinces, example if you push into a new supply zone, you will get a percentage of your non local supplies from the previous zone , the percentage is determined by what percentage of adjactent edge provinces you are controlling in the " new zone you have entered " this means if i enter a supply zone by taking a single province in it, that have 10 provinces bordering the supply zone i came from, i will get only 10% of the non local supplies from the previous zone, and i will get 10% of local supplies of the new zone i have entered,

Yeah to me this seems overly punitive to me. Maybe it should be the square root of the fraction of controlled edges? A supply zone is just an arbitrary grouping on the map, you shouldn't be killed for crossing the imaginary line. Sort of similar to how CAS that is 50km away from the fight you want to support might be at low efficiency because they don't have the 3000km range needed to fully cover the adjacent air zone. It's the arbitrary large-scale chunking of the abstraction leading to strange results at the boundaries.
 
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Yeah to me this seems overly punitive to me. Maybe it should be the square root of the fraction of controlled edges? A supply zone is just an arbitrary grouping on the map, you shouldn't be killed for crossing the imaginary line. Sort of similar to how CAS that is 50km away from the fight you want to support might be at low efficiency because they don't have the 3000km range needed to fully cover the adjacent air zone. It's the arbitrary large-scale chunking of the abstraction leading to strange results at the boundaries.
Yep 100 agree, including with cas , there is the otherside of it too of course, where planes from carriers 20 KM away get supressed by heavy fighters from 1700KM away
 
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Yep 100 agree, including with cas , there is the otherside of it too of course, where planes from carriers 20 KM away get supressed by heavy fighters from 1700KM away

Yeah you want to have chunks from an efficiency and UI point of view, but behaviour on the edges is just crazy.

Is there still the bug that the game will sometimes decide to draw the supply arrow through a region where you control say 20% of the incoming edges versus a region where you control 100%? I remember a soviet game where is kept flipping back and forth and I would get terrible supply problems one week and everything fine the next day.
 
I think everyone here agrees that tank divisions fighting in areas with low supply should eventually run out of fuel.

The key questions are how low supply and how long time?
 
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