Fun!
That's probably true for some (see post 156 for instance) but I for one genuinely enjoyed divisional commanders.
Reason for removing division leaders in HOI 4?
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Fun!
That's probably true for some (see post 156 for instance) but I for one genuinely enjoyed divisional commanders.
I have an even better idea: how about you grow some perspective?
. . . and no-one has said that they are getting rid of Major Generals, so you're basically panicking about nothing. And being insulting whilst doing so.
HOI2 had division-scale battles. It didn't have a commander-slot for every single division but only stack-commanders.
Paradox, just like every other company of reasonable size, do testing and market-research to find out what the players want.
Who died and made you spokesperson for everyone who plays HOI games? As for the people who play this game being the same as those who "enjoy the depth of high-level chess", nope, they're actually pretty different games - I know the Polish women's champion and the Greek men's champion (they're a couple) and their main skill is a kind of high-speed maths, the game they play outside of chess is poker. In fact a lot of chess players are moving into poker as a lucrative side-line - and as games go, it's about as 'streamlined' and 'casualised' as they go, being a game with fairly simple rules which anyone can play but where complexity can emerge through play.
You just named two very successful games companies that have both made very engaging games. The first Activision game I can remember playing was Ghostbusters on the ZX Spectrum back in '85, which was a blast. I guess instead of enjoying playing it I should have instead taken to my local forum (err . . . that probably would have been the letters page of CRASH magazine) and attacked it as 'dumbed down' and 'mainstream' compared to the awesomeness of games like Stonkers. But that would have been stupid.
Sounds like there's games you enjoy more than HOI. What are you doing here again?
Again: they test, they do market research. They don't just listen to whoever shouts loudest on the forums.
Good grief. Can't you even see how juvenile you sound?
Frankly I don't think there's any polite way I can respond to this section.
If any game ever sold copies just because of the name and the company it was coming from, it was HOI3 Vanilla, a game which was barely functional, massively slow, continually crashed, had essentially non-functional AI. The demo even repeatedly CTD'd.
Of course, you've forgotten this and are now praising it as a masterpiece.
Again, had HOI3 vanilla been a game in a new franchise, it would have sunk without trace, because of the extreme poor quality of the initial release. You've now forgotten this and are praising the game as a masterpiece. Put simply: people like you are the problem, not devs who are known for quality work.
Again, this last section is so preposterous (saying that devs known for their high-quality work shouldn't have their jobs) that it's hard to know how to respond to it. You don't even really know what it is that they're changing, but you're angry anyway.
We have listened to your thoughtful feedback and taken steps. Because of swedish labor laws we cant simply fire Darkrenown , but we will start to phase him out and replace him with an online service. We'll call it Free 2 Darkrenown.
Seriously though, watch your language and be nice to each other or I will close this thread.
Well, I played HOI1 and HOI2. Off course, some things were better in in them, than in HOI3 later, but at all HOI3 was a step forward. On the other hand, HOI3 were in some things a step backwards.
For example in getting leader traits, what was in HOI2, removed for HOI3, than with an Addon again brought in.
The same for divisional generals. They should be in, alone for the reason of immersion. In HOI3 they brought some good things with it, traits, experience, skill.....yes, HOI4 will be a new game, no DD out about this topic yet....
....I dont know why people say it was a big deal of "work" to reorganise their armies with generals and OOB.
Do it 1 times for your played countries in the beginning 1936/38/whatever, save it - ready all times.
If there is not a good reason for removing division generals, which I can not see now, I will be very sad.
Sad about suffering from the success of people which complained about a WW2-grand-strategy-game and its "complexity".
Fans of the original Hearts of Iron series would do well to note that Darkest Hour itself increased the minimum command limit of Major Generals to 3 divisions precisely to get away from the same sort of micromanagement.
Let's go further: why not use less-than-a-divisional-size? There are people on the forums who argue for that to be implemented.
I don't want to play the same all the time. I am doing something else - I am trying out different approaches, but to do so you need to start from the beginning, meaning you need to go through divisional generals all the time. Ignoring them isn't a good approach, because that means your units will fight sub-optimally. I could as well use random division composition, which is just as stupid. The effect is I play less than I did when all that hassle was new to me when I wanted to use AI to command my troops and plan for them, because that's where the game is fun for me. I find micromanagement having less to do with strategy than it's commonly believed, even on these boards, so I welcome limiting what I find not needed. It's definitely much less work in assigning corps' commanders while they can do exactly what divisional commander did and, in effect, there will be almost no gameplay change thus no ground for saying that game is becoming "dumber".
If you can't see it now then I doubt any DD will convince you as it ain't about rational arguments. Talk about immersion is nothing but being sentimential.
I support developers in this matter. This tedious process .. appoint commanders for each division, especially for large armies. And no pleasure (or fun) in this at all.
I for example do not understand what a pleasure tracking leaders and the game "Crusader Kings" irritates me because of the need to keep track of personal life of the leaders.
I for example do not understand what a pleasure tracking leaders and the game "Crusader Kings" irritates me because of the need to keep track of personal life of the leaders.
@HolyDeath
To make the OOB with putting generals inside to save it, was just a proposal.
Personally I dont do it, cause I have also new strategies with every new game, second I am test different commanders out every time.
For me it is fun, to organise the army, doesnt matter if its with Red Army, Japan Army or Wehrmacht.
I accept that some people dont like to put in divisional generals, but you people should accept also us, who want have division generals kept.
The solution in my eyes is not: this or that
The solution is to make it easier with some feature for these people, during not steal the fun ot those who want them inside.
Addition = +
Substraction = -
Beeing sentimental is the hole thing about playing WW2 games for me and the reason why I wont play some galactic stuff. I prefer propeller planes with oily smell, than laser phaser beam things
To make the OOB with putting generals inside to save it, was just a proposal.
Personally I dont do it, cause I have also new strategies with every new game, second I am test different commanders out every time.
For me it is fun, to organise the army, doesnt matter if its with Red Army, Japan Army or Wehrmacht.
I accept that some people dont like to put in divisional generals, but you people should accept also us, who want have division generals kept.
The solution in my eyes is not: this or that
The solution is to make it easier with some feature for these people, during not steal the fun ot those who want them inside.
Addition = +
Substraction = -
Beeing sentimental is the hole thing about playing WW2 games for me and the reason why I wont play some galactic stuff. I prefer propeller planes with oily smell, than laser phaser beam things
Yeah, but that won't stop people here going off the deep end with the most bizarre rants on this subject. Seriously, so far we've had:
- People comparing HOI games to "high-level chess" in their complexity. As if playing this game makes you the equivalent of Gary Kasparov or Nigel Short. This becomes even more ridiculous when you consider that the rules of chess are actually pretty simple (the complexity emerges from game play, and is not imposed by rules) and that good chess players can weigh up all the factors and see many moves ahead - something impossible in HOI.
- People talking about how playing HOI games is for "high IQ" people and not "low IQ" FPS fans. I need hardly point out just how deluded and arrogant this comment is.
- People talking about how the good GFX they saw in the two screenshots that had been released at that point made them think that the game was going to be "arcadey". Panic about minor changes seems to be a general theme here.
- Rants about the use of sprites instead of counters, including allegations that counters were going to be left out of the game. It's hard to tell whether the people doing this are just trolling or whether they really believe this or are just trying to create panic among those for whom any change is bad.
These people seem universally to imagine that they speak for all HOI players, and also seem to take a strange pride in simply playing a particular computer game.
It has little to do with acceptance. I know there are some people who express different opinion on this that I, but that's it. It doesn't tell me how many of them are out there that think this way and how numerous are people thinking the opposite. Without solid numbers to distinguish the majory of players our opinions, as individuals, are just this: opinions. Why should I support yours over my own, especially when arguments you give are based mostly, if not entirely, on opinion and not on facts or benefiting the gameplay as a whole?
Gamers have always felt a lot of entitlement. The whole reason we have a thread like this is really my fault because someone asked in another thread if we would move away from the gazillion division commander leaders micromanagement of hoi3 and i said yes. I shouldnt have said anything until a dev diary where I could present the whole design for leaders and leader management because to many it probably just sounds like we took a pair of scissors to the game and cut out stuff.
So, chill with some hot chocolate and try not to envision the end of the world while you wait for a dev diary. Fear not, Rommel is still in the game ;D
Also, ye should remember that not everyone is a hardcore player. Regular forumites are probably a small minority of people who own the game and a great many are probably totally indifferent to this sort of stuff. I'm a fairly big Paradox fanboi myself and hate to see a bad design decision made, but those are massively outweighed by the good ones, and in any case, the time to criticise a flaw in the game is when you've actually played it and found it lacking, not when you've imagined what it might be like with little or no basis and got annoyed.
I'm afraid you have got it wrong; HoI is for people whom have been conscripted at one point in their life or have served (NCO, CO or even mere ranker) lest you are filthy casual incapable of comprehending true subtleties of assigning Rommel to Gespensterdivision in my meticulously re-enacted breakthrough of the undefended (!) AI line. I do declare in my own ideal world deviced in my little head you need to show military pass in order to boot up the game. That ought to show dem filthy casuals!
(In case if someone didn't get it, that was tongue in cheek.)
That being said I can quite frankly somewhat sympathise with some of the more colourful sentiments since my initial reaction was pretty much summed up by certain three letter acronym but five minutes later I decided to await for the developer diary before making any further judgements.
Join date: January 2002
Join date: 2007
Noobs.
I know more about HOI than either of you. I remember when we didn't even have a Clausewitz engine. I remember running Fantasia in the original EU as a scenario setup for HOI. Do you know how much colonization there was in a Fantasia game? It was insane.
I also remember the original Victoria and the impossible to understand consequences for enacting or removing key political reforms. We had dictatorships pop up in our democracies for obscure reasons, and dammit, we liked it!
Remember the original CK and never-ending crusades era that resulted in huge piety losses unless you kept crusading unto the ends of the Earth? We were losing 50 piety a month as an emperor, and we liked it that way, even when we were crusading uphill both ways in the snow of North Africa.
:thinks for a moment:
Wait. Scratch all that. The first HOI game I ever played was HOI3. Before that, the only WWII games I had ever played were Avalon Hill tabletop games, where we couldn't assign generals at all. (And boy, did it make a big difference in Eastern Front...)
EDIT: In case it isn't obvious, what I want from an "assign general" mechanic are meaningful choices and historical flavor. I don't want tedium, and I don't want it to be an area where the AI just sucks.
I can get plenty of historical flavor even if you just took HOI3's assign general mechanic and made it corps or better (Guderian, Rommel, Patton, Zhukov, and all the rest can still lead meaningful formations). But if you have something more interesting in mind, I can't wait to see it.
If possible, keep the entire leader roster from HOI3 in so players can assign even the most incompetent generals to command positions. Those Old Guard Skill 1 morons can still be groomed... over the dead bodies of thousands of their soldiers.
Well the people who go to forums have a tendency to be hardcore players and sometimes borderline crazy. See Bioware fórum for reference (and laughs
)And yes like you said the change was made because the good stuff outweights the bad, not because they want to troll playes. But some people indeed think that playing a computer game should be placed on a curriculum vitae or scores points with girls, because they will gladly accept lots of "complexity" even if it makes for a worse game.
Nice Postcount, scrub :smug:
Problems with governments in V1? Sounds like you might need some mods to help you out, if only some smart, handsome fan had made any:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?151682-Patches-and-Mods
I'd link directly to my Revolution fixing mod, but it's so old the link is in the old forum format and no longer works...
Perhaps it's just as well, they'd be dumbing down your V1 experience, being made by a casual shooter fan who certainly wouldn't spend most of his adult life beta testing and modding Paradox games before moving internationally to work directly on the games he loves.
Contemplating getting rid of the legendary Admiral ? Sacrilege!! :laugh:
LOLWHATROFLMAONOOBWTF!??!? I wouldn't have believed it possible, but in this one single area I am more grognardy than thou, because I played through the wonderful pleasures of HOI1 and HOI2.
HOI1 was a game where airstrikes had to be manually ordered. Individually. Where reinforcement was carried out by clicking on stacks to see how low their MP was and clicking on the "reinforce" button if it got low - do you know how many time I lost units because I forgot to do this? HOI1 was a game where the naval war would essentially not happen - maybe I'm wrong here, but I seem to remember that the AI literally never built large warships or carried out amphibious operations. Trading was just a case of swapping resources in individual trades, so you had to keep an eye on that as well.
Despite all the above (most of which was fixed in HOI2), I was hooked, because there simply wasn't any other game on the market that let you do what HOI does - play at being a national leader in WW2 in real time. 12 years latter I'm still playing, not simply because of the name, but because there still isn't really any other game that lets you do this.
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