Reason behind making User Modifications Sub-Forum Private

[LodovicoAriosto]

You were told the reason

No he was not given a reason. If the reason is fighting piracy at the cost of modding, then admit it and don't avoid it. I understand it although I don't like it. But an honest answer like this is 100% better than repetitive DRM tales.

To back up my claim about modding at risk of being hurt I can

1. summarize possible risks
2. provide some indicators of what it means "modding being hurt" in terms of public hard data. This is called variable operalization.

Hell, if it was allowed here I would even take a bet with any of you guys about future development of a hard data based index on which definition we agree upon. take this as my English training rather than spam, please :unsure:

Total score could be for example defined as a certain relation of total subforum views, total subforums threads and a total number of playable major overhaul and minor fix mods - all this scaled down by total views and posts in respective general game subforums. This could be calculated let's say in a several months from now for different games to ultimately show how "big" is the modding scene is both before (older PI titles) and after (Sengoku, CK2) this change.

I don't know where your hostility is coming from, You have been told the answer, I have said it, others have said it, you just do not want to hear it because you do not like the policy. I am sorry that you do not like it.

Your provided two answers which are not answers:

1. "live with it or there will be DRM"
2. "focus groups told us" = the reason is that we have reasons

I may be blind but I don't see a reason provided here. I see a negative attitude in that rather than anything meaningful. If you don't want to give reasons or don't know them then ok, as I said, no response is better than these. No wonder people get irritated by this.


And yet this is exactly what you tell me many people buy the game for. That seams like a contradiction to me.

Well, I think I agree with Castellon here. I can accept that this really could hurt at least some pirates and maybe motivate them to buy the games. But IMO this looks like taking modding as a hostage in this combat and it doesn't seem fair to me, as well as it really can rise eyebrows of many people.

That is twisting what I said to give it a meaning it does not have.
Giving someone a place to plan and work with others and a platform to distribute that fan work is not the same as using that work, the tool and resource of the forum are the feature not the work itself.

Again I agree here. PI doesn't really distribute the work itself, it has only limited access to it on the privileged place - the official forum. Mods can be downloaded elsewhere. When I talked about possible blowback, this is another thing which will possibly backfire - you will see more people using other places to offer, discuss and download mods so the place you have made a restricted area will see a transfer of part of the modding activity elsewhere. Another aspect of how the modding will be hurt by this change.

As I see it, modding has lost a priority status and is being partially replaced by DLC over time. This is totally in accordance to making subforums "private". Forum members opinion doesnt have much say in this, like it did not in case of DLC poll which showed one thing and the company did basically the opposite to what members voted for. They had no obligation to behave according to the poll of course, it was just informative. But no surprise that forum members may get mad when seeing this. I am not mentioning here how the poll was manipulated or just badly designed to favour a certain outcome which can be proved by looking at any Introduction to survey methodology.

The same happens in focus groups very often. I work in this field myself. In this industry, we actually make statistics of clients and we know that clients who have had their initial ideas, hypothesis confirmed by the survey or a focus group, more often return later with another project. So it is more profitable to flatter the client rather than tell him the truth which can sometimes be unpleasant and can even hurt his position in their company. There are international conventions on ethic codex but its enforcement is debatable. Usually some people from the company want to push some decision and seek "scientific" approval and many market research companies give a certain spin to the results to avoid the client being disappointed. Thats how it goes, but pshh!

So most company decisions are still based on decisions of certain individuals in those companies. They only use market research as a front to avoid direct personal responsibility for consequences of certain decisions. Or even if their intention is truly sincere then they still may become victims of survey agencies which do this indiscriminately to both of them, even when the company really invests hefty sums of money just to be directed at some points by results of a survey rather than by its own corporate leadership. The bigger the company is, the more it is reluctant to give away its power to someone else usually.

This effect can also be observed when the company does the research on its own because there is a hierarchy within the company.

So when the only answer provided is mentioning some mysterious focus groups I am like WTF???

 

[Castellon]

Okay I will spell it out very clear if that is what you wish.

1. The focus group I refer to IS the forum.
2. You basically have a choice between some form of DRM or what we are trying to do which is Limited or No DRM at least on internal titles but rather encourage people to buy and register the game to access extras.
The over whelming response here has been no DRM as a mantra.
Therefore our ongoing process has been to limit access to more and more forums to those that have purchased our games. This trend continues and now encompasses the modification forums.

You clearly understood that it is an anti piracy measure as did everyone else so how exactly did I "hide it" I thought I was pretty clear. Now what we disagree on is that it will hurt User modding.
This will have to be seen, I suppose if I feel it is negatively impacting sales, the policy could be reviewed in the future, nothing is set in stone, this is an evolving thing. In addition we are working on alternative or additional initiative to try and achieve similar results.

Having said all that, now I say take everything I just said with a grain of salt as I am sure marketing has a much nicer way of saying things and a different spin on it.

 

[P-51]

That is twisting what I said to give it a meaning it does not have.
Giving someone a place to plan and work with others and a platform to distribute that fan work is not the same as using that work, the tool and resource of the forum are the feature not the work itself.

Of course. But now what you are implying by enacting this policy is "hey! look at our games, it has all the stuff we did and in addition to that you can get this secret prize things called mods!". I am only saying this based on your previous comment. That isn't even the main problem here.

The over whelming response here has been no DRM as a mantra.

Yes I have seen many people say that they did not want DRM. I have not seen one that suggested you should hide the mod forums from people who have not registered the game.

Now that you finally admitted that piracy was the reason for this. I would like to ask how you think this will stop piracy. I don't see how this is supposed to be an effective way of discouraging piracy. If one had the means to pirate a game, how would blocking their access to the forums stop them from obtaining the mod in other ways? Restricting access to the forums will do nothing to stop piracy and it will have a significant impact on hurting future sales to existing customers. This just seems like a very poor decision regarding sales revenue and customer relations.

 

[s1234567890m]

Seeing aas mods are not limited to the paradox forums..... the point is access to the paradox mod user forum

 

[P-51]

Seeing aas mods are not limited to the paradox forums..... the point is access to the paradox mod user forum

Yeah I can see that. The question was how the hell is that supposed to do anything to prevent piracy?

 

[Castellon]

err, pirates don't get access.
And that is just one of many things they will not get, there used to be special things in the game box, I still have the great map from the EU2 box for example, the kind of stuff you did not get if you decide to steal the game rather than pay for it. In the digital world you do not have retail box, you need to provide other incentive, as I said we are looking at many ways.

I still think this will have zero impact on modding, maybe I wil be proved wrong, but an activity that you need to own the game to do or even to use, and we in no way restrict for those that do, well ...

As to your first point, you cannot have it both ways people are telling me that sales will be lost because people that do not own the game cannot see user mods, and then you accuse us of advertising those same user mods as a selling point. Other people claim we are exploiting unpaid users to add marketability to our game, and then say sales will be lost because we are not marketing those mods. Can you guys not see the dichotomy there.

 

[P-51]

Taking away something that was generally accessible and turning it into something that you need to register for to be accessible is not much of an incentive. People aren't going to pay $40 for a game thinking "I'm not sure if I want this game or not...but if I buy it and gain access to the user mods then maybe there will be a chance that I will find something that makes this game worth buying". As a consumer that is taking a very high risk.

I agree, this will probably have very little impact on new mods being created.

Yes, you are going to lose sales from this, and at the same time you are exploiting consumers who make mods. Where's the dichotomy?

 

[Castellon]

We will have to agree to disagree about both your interpretation and your conclusion .

 

[P-51]

Yeah that's fine. Just one more thing though because I'm confused now. Was this policy really created to fight against piracy? If so what is the reasoning for thinking that it would be effective an anti-pirate action?

 

[Castellon]

I have explained, if the explanation is not adequate for you I apologize, but it is the only one I have.

 

[Prinz Wilhelm]

I like to surf into the Hearts of Iron III forum from time to time to see if the Clio's Iron Heart map is out yet. That's one of the things that's going to make me buy that game eventually. I think it's fair enough that you can't access attachments or post in the forum, but still browse. Since I haven't bought the game I don't expect much than just to see what mods are there.

 

[jamhaw]

I still do not understand why allowing people to view the forums but not post or download from them would not work. That way everyone (including the pirates) would know what they are missing by not buying the game. If Paradox continues this policy then they are unlikely to receive much more money from me as mods have played such an important role in my decision to purchase all Clausewitz games (except Victoria II I suppose) I may be in the minority in that but I still fail to see how this would benefit Paradox in the slightest.

 

[unmerged(382585)]

I can't register my games because they are already registered. I found someone selling his games in a local newspaper sales part.

BUT I mod my games a lot and now I can't participate and contribute to modding community.

That is counter-producitve.

And no focus group or restriction will make me change my behavior as to:
-pay money I don't have for a brand-new unused game
-stop me from selling my game

Modding ain't worth it, I talk to those people via private messages.
There you have a hint at what to restrict next.

thanx

 

[Captain Gars]

I can't register my games because they are already registered. I found someone selling his games in a local newspaper sales part.

But why should Paradox provide you with access to special sub-forums when you haven't paid us for the game?

 

[unmerged(382585)]

But why should Paradox provide you with access to special sub-forums when you haven't paid us for the game?

-because I own a legal copy of the game. When PI sells a game that game becomes property of that person, he sold it to me so now it's mine as long as ALL RIGHTS that go with it. The problem with (inability for multiple) registration is in another cathegory you haven't solved.

-because it only disables me from contributing to mods and doesn't stop me or anybody from getting mods although it's a bit harder.

-because these tactics won't actually make me give PI money if I already have the game. I actually played several PI games for years before I even realized there is this forum or that you can't acess stuff if you don't register. I have only now realized this.

 

[LodovicoAriosto]

Have you obtained a product key along with the game itself? If not, then you were cheated.

If yes and you cannot use it because it has already been used then this is really a problem. Many people have been stripped of their rights this way. As boxed games move to digital-only games this problem is usual and it seems legislation is not capable of enforcing peoples ownership rights.

Companies want to destroy second hand market. The same works anywhere else - car manufacturer doesnt want you to buy used cars. This irrational suicidal system is natural part of the whole economic system and becomes more intensive whenever people start to spend less which is these days.

 

[comsubpac]

-because I own a legal copy of the game. When PI sells a game that game becomes property of that person, he sold it to me so now it's mine as long as ALL RIGHTS that go with it. The problem with (inability for multiple) registration is in another cathegory you haven't solved.

-because it only disables me from contributing to mods and doesn't stop me or anybody from getting mods although it's a bit harder.

-because these tactics won't actually make me give PI money if I already have the game. I actually played several PI games for years before I even realized there is this forum or that you can't acess stuff if you don't register. I have only now realized this.

why should paradox give you product keys for free? as captain gars said: you didn't pay them anything.

 

[P-51]

Wow guys, don't act like you've never bought anything second-hand before.

 

[comsubpac]

Wow guys, don't act like you've never bought anything second-hand before.

actually i haven't bought a game second hand. however, if he needs forum keys he has to contact the one he bought the game from. if the keys are already used he should demand his money back.

 

[reis91]

Looking at things just from the pirate perspective, mod files are usually hosted in filesharing services, and therefore out of control of Paradox, who can only control linking to them in their own boards. Even if they restrict linking to subforums, it does not stop links from being made available either by the mod's makers or by it's public to the general audience.

For instance, Diday's ICE mod for HoI 3. A google search will come up with the google code site which contains the code for the last version of the mod (currently a WiP for FtM), and a server with all the files, so restricting access to HoI mod subforums won't get a single extra copy sold due to a highly successful mod (perhaps the most successful one of any Clausewitz engine game?).

Now, it might actually harm your sales, as it was already argued. Some people (and you can find many examples of this around this forum) won't acquire games until major mods have been adapted for them, so this just inconveniences them a lot in their attempts to find if their mod of choice has already been updated for that expansion pack.

Instead of doing this, perhaps you should be going in the opposite direction, trying to get more people to look into the mods, by featuring the most successful ones on announcements, perhaps, and give them some publicity, in order to give more arguments for people to buy your games. Paradox should do their utmost to ensure people get a good look at the mods for their games, in order to attract more costumers.