Realm effects from buildings only work in ruler's demesne

Realm effects from buildings only work in ruler's demesne

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Various buildings in CK3, especially special buildings like Hagia Sophia etc.. give bonuses to entire realm, in CK2 they used to give bonus even if county was being held by vassal, I've found out by experiment that this is not the case in CK3, to get effects from special building you need to personally own not only the county, but the barony.

This is even the case if temple barony is being leased to realm priest - when I converted from Christianity (Theocratic) to Islam (Lay Clergy) my renown bonus went up from 15% to 25% just because I got all temple holdings with special buildings.

I'm not sure if it's a bug or a feature
 
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I'd like to know this as well. 1.1 patch notes does not mention this.
 

Cymsdale

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Pasting a boilerplate reply to this issue. I should really just put it in my signature since this comes up so much.

Read the in game encyclopedia entry for "realm". Then read the entry for "domain". Then (and this is important), every time you see a building tooltip, pretend it says "domain" instead of "realm". If you follow this simple advice, you will understand 100% how buildings work in Crusader Kings 3. There will be no confusion if the bonus applies to you or not.

Now, there is a contingent of trolls on this forum who downvote me every time I say this, and give twisted logic on why it makes sense for the tooltip to say "realm" like it does. Simply ignore them, because if you follow my advice above, you will have no issue understanding how any building bonus works in the game. It will be completely clear.
 
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Hey. I've read your reply from a previous thread. Thank you.

My point is that special buildings should affect Top realm as well, like it was in CK2.
 
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Cymsdale

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Hey. I've read your reply from a previous thread. Thank. you.

My point is that special buildings should affect Top realm as well, like it was in CK2.
The probably want to encourage you to hold them directly this time.
 
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Various buildings in CK3, especially special buildings like Hagia Sophia etc.. give bonuses to entire realm, in CK2 they used to give bonus even if county was being held by vassal, I've found out by experiment that this is not the case in CK3, to get effects from special building you need to personally own not only the county, but the barony.

This is even the case if temple barony is being leased to realm priest - when I converted from Christianity (Theocratic) to Islam (Lay Clergy) my renown bonus went up from 15% to 25% just because I got all temple holdings with special buildings.

I'm not sure if it's a bug or a feature
Simply put, when the building says Realm, it is referring to the holder's realm and not to the liege's realm. It doesn't matter that they are part of your realm as liege, it only affects the holder's realm. So if you want the direct effects of a building, you must be the holder of the holding that has the building. You may still get indirect value out of a holding that is held by a vassal (increase to their gold or levies will help you as you get a percentage of whatever they have), but you will not get the full benefit.

As was pointed out by Cymsdale, one way to look at it is by thinking about it as being Domain as that relates to your direct holdings. Just keep in mind that if you look at it from that point of view, it isn't entirely accurate in that the effects apply to the holder's entire Realm and not just their Domain. For example, if I am a King and my vassal Duke holds a Barony with a building that has a Realm effect, that affect applies to all counties that are in the Duke's Realm even if they are held by the Duke's vassals (i.e. not just his Domain). However, it does not apply to my entire Realm as King because it's based on the Duke's Realm since the Duke holds the Barony.

It's a little confusing because in one sense Domain is the better terminology and in another sense, Realm is better. Easiest to just consider that if it says Realm, it's just referring to the Realm of the holder.

As a side note, buildings that are in Temple and City holdings shouldn't be held by you as a player (wrong type), so any buildings in those will not directly affect you when they say Realm, so think about when you build in City and Temple holdings even if you hold the County. This also applies to some special buildings that are in those holding types.

My point is that special buildings should affect Top realm as well, like it was in CK2.
I agree with you here. Special buildings are not buildings you can just build wherever you want, so they should directly either affect the top liege, or probably the better option, directly affect the holder of the County they are in. Actually, I think all buildings should affect the holder of the County they are in, though not the top liege. If it has to be that you hold specific holdings, then you should be allowed to hold the other holding types without penalties, but I don't really like that option.
 
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The probably want to encourage you to hold them directly this time.
that doesn't make sense, you get penalty for tax and levies if you hold a city, and for you to hold a temple, you need to be a lay clergy doutrine, and is worthless that way
The mayors and Bishops won't benefit from the bonus, cause they are passive
there is special buildings in city and temple locations...that is the problem, and it seems they don't addressed this
 
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For example, if I am a King and my vassal Duke holds a Barony with a building that has a Realm effect, that affect applies to all counties that are in the Duke's Realm even if they are held by the Duke's vassals (i.e. not just his Domain). However, it does not apply to my entire Realm as King because it's based on the Duke's Realm since the Duke holds the Barony.

It's a little confusing because in one sense Domain is the better terminology and in another sense, Realm is better. Easiest to just consider that if it says Realm, it's just referring to the Realm of the holder.
I mean, not only is this confusing, it is just flat out wrong. Your duke won't get the bonuses listed under "realm" for the building unless he directly holds that building himself.
 
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Wait a sec. So the religious holy sites where you can build a special building... if I build the special religious building that gives +15% knight effectiveness, then give that county to a vassal because I'm over the limit... I won't get that 15% bonus?
 
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OP's appraisal is completely correct.

If the current behaviour is intended, then the description of the special buildings should say domain, not realm.
However the current behaviour is deeply flawed, as not only does it require the realm ruler spread their domain all over the place, but it also makes non-feudal special buildings redundant if they're an inappropriate holding type for the ruler.
The only logical solution is to make special buildings grant their bonus to the realm ruler (as they did in CK2), regardless of who actually controls the holding.

Leave the descriptions as they are, and fix the behaviour to how it was in CK2. (and perhaps rebalance the special building bonuses if they turn out to be too powerful)
 
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OP's appraisal is completely correct.

If the current behaviour is intended, then the description of the special buildings should say domain, not realm.
However the current behaviour is deeply flawed, as not only does it require the realm ruler to spread their domain all over the place, but it also makes non-feudal special buildings redundant if they're an inappropriate holding type for the ruler.
The only logical solution is to make special buildings grant their bonus to the realm ruler (as they did in CK2), regardless of who actually controls the holding.

Leave the descriptions as they are, and fix the behaviour to how it was in CK2. (and perhaps rebalance the special building bonuses if they turn out to be too powerful)
Also they need to rework buildings for cities and temple, since they also use the same buildings as the castle, and make the realm bonus useless...
 

Riamus

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I mean, not only is this confusing, it is just flat out wrong. Your duke won't get the bonuses listed under "realm" for the building unless he directly holds that building himself.
Read what I said more carefully. I stated specifically that the Duke owned the Barony with the building in question.

To clarify... If your Duke holds a Barony with a building that has a Realm effect, all counties in the Duke's Realm will get the effect even if some of those counties are held by the Duke's vassals. If it was Domain, then only the counties owned by the Duke would get the effect. So Realm is accurate, but it makes the player assume it applies to the player's Realm even if a vassal holds the holding with the building in it, which is not the case.

EDIT: The "fix" that I think needs to be made is to change the tooltip to state "Holder's Realm" instead of just "Realm" as that would clarify whose Realm is benefiting from the effect.
 
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They need to clarify both the name used "Realm" vs "Domain"

and they need to fix the effects


Some effects really should remain Domain, otherwise you end up with 1000 Attack Pikemen
Some effects really should be Realm effects, as in as long as your Vassal controls it, you benefit

The entire system needs a comb thru
 
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They need to clarify both the name used "Realm" vs "Domain"
Just curious... clarify how? It's the same as in CK2. Realm is everything you own and everything below your titles. Domain is only what you own directly.

Realm Effect:

Player King directly owns counties A, B, C.
Your vassal Duke directly owns counties D, E, F, and barony D.1 (a barony in county D).
Duke's vassal Count directly owns county G.
There is a building in barony D.1 with a Realm effect.

Now, I think every agrees on what Domain and Realm mean. The King's Realm is counties A-G plus barony D.1 listed above. The King's Domain is counties A-C. The Duke's Realm is counties D-G and barony D.1. The Duke's Domain is counties D-F and barony D.1. The Count's Realm is county G. The Count's Domain is also county G.

Note that this is simplified and there are going to be holdings in each of those counties that are held by someone, but to keep this easy to understand, I'm limiting the example to only have the one barony holding. It still works the same no matter how many holdings, counties, etc. you add.

So far I think we would all agree with how this is laid out. Now comes the part that is confusing people - that building in barony D.1. The holder of that barony is the Duke. Because it's has a Realm effect for that Duke, it affects everything in the Duke's Realm, which includes counties D-G and barony D.1. If the building were to affect the Domain instead, it would affect counties D-F and barony D.1 because county G is not part of the Duke's Domain. In both cases, it will not affect counties A-C because those are neither the Duke's Realm nor the Duke's Domain and the Duke is the holder of the barony that has the building, so those two terms refer specifically to the Duke and not to the King.

As I mentioned, "Holder's Realm" would be a much clearer tooltip to use so you understand that it's the Duke's Domain in this example and not the King's (Player's) Domain.

EDIT: And to clarify, if the holding is held by a barony tier person (someone who isn't Count or higher), then only that person's holding(s) directly benefit from the Realm effect because their Realm will always be exactly the same as their Domain since they will never have vassals. This is usually the case for City and Temple holdings since you aren't supposed to hold those directly.

Also to clarify, if that Count listed above had a barony G.1 with a building with Realm effect, the building would affect the Count's Realm, which would then include county G and barony G.1, which would also be the Domain of the Count (if there was only the one barony within the Count's Realm and he owned it, which as mentioned in the italics above, would not be the case, but is just here for simplification). The Realm effect would not affect the Duke's Domain or the King's Domain.
 
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Myrten

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Names and confusion are one thing, but bigger issue is balance/difficulty - big player empire owning like 6 counties with special buildings will almost certainly have them all in ruler domain making entire empire stronger. The same empire if run by AI will have 1 county if any at all, which will make it comparably weaker. Making special buildings affect top ruler realm will solve this problem.
 
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Riamus

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Names and confusion are one thing, but bigger issue is balance/difficulty - big player empire owning like 6 counties with special buildings will almost certainly have them all in ruler domain making entire empire stronger. The same empire if run by AI will have 1 county if any at all, which will make it comparably weaker. Making special buildings affect top ruler realm will solve this problem.
That just needs AI improvements. Besides, splitting your domain up far enough to get many special buildings isn't necessarily the smartest idea either. You lose out on duchy building effects if you can't hold the counties there, for example. I'm not saying holding some special building holdings isn't smart, but it isn't necessarily the best option. I don't agree with giving the bonus to the top tier ruler. It makes the top tier ruler too powerful. If the top tier ruler wants those holdings, let them own them directly instead of counties and take the potential "penalties" associated with not having as many counties. It also makes it so their vassals might want to fight for those counties, helping to destabilize larger realms, which isn't a bad thing.

EDIT: Removed an incorrect statement as explained later in the thread - most special buildings are in the primary holding and therefore don't affect the number of counties you can hold.
 
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Myrten

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That just needs AI improvements.
Do you realize how hard would be designing AI to do this? It would probably have to revoke multiple titles, incurring tyranny. That's very hard thing to code properly so AI won't self-destruct.
Besides, splitting your domain up far enough to get many special buildings isn't necessarily the smartest idea either. You lose out on duchy building effects if you can't hold the counties there, for example. I'm not saying holding some special building holdings isn't smart, but it isn't necessarily the best option.
It is the best option, you only need to hold duchy capital county to get bonus from duchy building, I always had more than enough of such counties, and many counties with special buildings are duchy capitals.

I don't agree with giving the bonus to the top tier ruler. It makes the top tier ruler too powerful. If the top tier ruler wants those holdings, let them own them directly instead of counties and take the potential "penalties" associated with not having as many counties. It also makes it so their vassals might want to fight for those counties, helping to destabilize larger realms, which isn't a bad thing.
Ruler with special building counties has the same number of counties as ruler without them. The only difference could be in case of special buildings in temple holdings and ruler with lay clergy, but those special buildings in temple holdings are extremely rare
 

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Ruler with special building counties has the same number of counties as ruler without them. The only difference could be in case of special buildings in temple holdings and ruler with lay clergy, but those special buildings in temple holdings are extremely rare
Can you verify that not holding a barony that has the special building will let you benefit from it? It doesn't work for city and temple holdings, so I wouldn't expect it to work for barony holding either. I haven't bothered to get a special building yet, so haven't seen the mechanics personally. If you have to own the barony, then it means one less county because both count toward your domain cap.

EDIT: Actually, can you verify that any special buildings that are in barony holdings are only in the primary holding that you get automatically by holding the county or that none are in barony holdings at all? If that's the case, then yes, you're right. If special buildings can be in a secondary barony, then it would decrease the number of counties you can hold. I haven't looked into the special buildings to see where they are, so maybe the issue I mentioned isn't accurate.
 
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