Really, would stuff have really changed if Germany took Moscow?

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PogoMarimo

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Keep in mind the effect on other things. Lend-lease from America would begin to dry up as Russians continued to lose the infrastructure necessary to support it. The agricultural output would continue to recede as the demands on the interior regions of the country increased. It wasn't until the victories at Stalingrad and Moscow that the Russian industry stabilized enough to recover their pre-war production, something which may not have happened as more raw materials were lost to German encroachment and more factories evacuated, not to mention their primary means of transportation totally discombobulated. Food and troops wouldn't be able to reach the front, and raw materials wouldn't be able to reach the factories. The Soviets would need to perform a massive retreat in order to consolidate their front to something sustainable, bringing with it the huge lose in morale and supplies.

If Germany had somehow secured Moscow and Stalingrad they would have had a really real chance at winning the war, but it still would not have been easy.
 

TypicalRain

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And how exactly would the millions of tons of Iron Ore, Steel, Oil, food, etc all flow to the west from the "Heart" if there are only 2 rail connection from the Urals? I'm sure that everything needed from Northern and Southern Russia is also of little importance right?

Comparing a Napolean non industrial age to an Industrial war makes no sense, when the industrial war requires railways to move the millions of tons of materials needed. Napolean war? Horses and wagons could go anywhere and faced no such constraints.


Please look at this great map posted earlier > http://www.parovoz.com/maps/electric.jpg

It has a lot of detail and while leaving out smaller networks is very complete. But no there are not ‘only 2’ transportation corridors.

First about Leningrad. The railways were already cut there from before the Battle of Moscow. Losing it would have no impact on this since they weren’t using it at all and the germans were advancing on Tver. This is why many supplies to the city were sent over Ladoga. Supplies where shipped from Arkhangelsk south in this case and while this important port had connections to Moscow it also had lines leading east as well. If Moscow did fall though it would not be the front supply depot it would move to Nizhniy Novogorod which is also a major rail hub directly leading to Moscow. Connected to the volga and has lines south and north. Even if that fell you have Kazan behind it. If you didn’t know.. the “Heart” of Russia is the Volga. During Stalingrad thousands of troops and supplies came down by ship. Even today the river is a major water way for trade and transports. It is an indestructible ‘railway’.

Also I was not making the comparison to Napoleon because of supplies, but because of his believe taking the capital would cause the Russian surrender. And then thinking he would be able to stay there.

Horse and wagons do face such restrains. And they were used extensively during the war.

Not trying to sound pretentious, just trying to explain some knowledge. Sorry for the long paragraph. :)
 
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WSnova

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Of course not. Everything was different, but still, he made it to Moscow and nothing changed.

His goal was different though. I mean he pretty much only wanted to kill the Russian army, but the russian army didn´t want to comply so he pretty much just wandered around the country, captured the non capital and went home probably feeling ashamed because of how pointless and deadly it all had been.
 

Deadboykilla

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The question is really comes down to about 6 key scenarios that need to be looked at both at an individual level and as a combined impact on the overall war

1) With the fall of Moscow does Stalin die or captured? either from refusing to leave or as he tries to flee the city (this is the most important question)

2) How does the initial loss of Command and Control impact the front? with the capture of Moscow, the Stavka could be left in disarray for weeks as it relocates or is destroyed and a new Stavka needs to be setup (documents, map, communication)

3) Impact on the Northern front? with no way for fresh troops to be set to the northern front what impact does this have, I'm sure the north has enough supplies to last at least a month (maybe this is enough time)

4) What is the impact on the NKVD with the loss of it's Command structure? as they helped to keep discipline amongst the troops (independent thought was not a strong point of Soviet Russia)

5) What happens to the supplies sent from England? these all arrived in the northern ports and would of been sent out through the Moscow rail junction

6) With the lose of the centre of soviet power, potential the beloved leader, the disorganization of the war time leadership. Does a internal power struggle become a problem for the remaining leaders? Who takes control of the leadership is it someone willing to fight on or someone who wishes to sue for peace?
 
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Damiani

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Well the Soviets can thank Zhukov for not having to confront that question.
 
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Fulmen

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If Hitler had not split Army Group Centre in 1941, the Germans could most likely have taken Moscow before the mud season, or at least before the winter really set in.

Taking Moscow would have meant a total loss of major supply networks and radio communications for the Red Army west of the Urals. The RKKA would have become like a chicken without a head.

Interestingly, if Finland had attacked Leningrad, the city would have most likely fallen to the Finno-German forces coming from two sides. This would have freed Army Group North to continue east and help AG Centre. Furthermore, Finland could have permanently cut the Murmansk railroad line, thus forcing crucial Allied lend-lease to redirect all the way through Persia and Vladivostok in the Far East. One might argue that Finland's refusal to Germany's requests for aggressive warfare somewhat saved Russia, but also bit Finland in the arse.
 

Evan05

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If Moscow was taken, morale for the Allies would have definitely dropped, with morale and war support for German citizens and soldiers would sky rocket.

Even if they did take it however, the Soviet Union did move a portion of it's industry and mobilized populace into the Urals as a last safe guard against Germany (as it would be virtually impossible for Germany to offensively invade the Ural Mountains during the state they were currently in). And even then, the US would already have been in the war, or would've joined soon enough which would spell defeat for Germany considering the US's massive industry, geographical distance from any Axis power, and massive population.

The invasion of the USSR would've eventually become a game of attrition, dealing with disease, famine, rebellions, below freezing temperatures, a game that the Soviet Union would eventually win to some extent.
 

Fulmen

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Further scenarios that could possibly have produced a German victory:

-Hitler doesn't halt his Panzers at Dunkirk and the BEF is captured. England is forced to accept peace; the Allies are out of the war. No second front, no lend-lease for Russia.

-Hitler doesn't impulsively switch from bombing airfields and other military targets vital to England's defense, to civilian targets in response to the RAF's night raid on Berlin. The already on-the-verge-of-destruction-RAF isn't allowed crucial time to recover and is instead eliminated. Operation Sealion commences and the English, who are so outgunned that they have individual artillery pieces defending several miles of ground, are no match for the combined Heer and Luftwaffe. England is forced to accept peace; the Allies are out of the war. No second front, no lend-lease for Russia.

-Operation Barbarossa is not delayed.

-Japan invades the USSR from the East.

-Germany doesn't delay total economic mobilisation until 1943, but instead does this early in the war, at least by 1941.
 

Sernista

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Further scenarios that could possibly have produced a German victory:

-Hitler doesn't halt his Panzers at Dunkirk and the BEF is captured. England is forced to accept peace; the Allies are out of the war. No second front, no lend-lease for Russia.

-Hitler doesn't impulsively switch from bombing airfields and other military targets vital to England's defense, to civilian targets in response to the RAF's night raid on Berlin. The already on-the-verge-of-destruction-RAF isn't allowed crucial time to recover and is instead eliminated. Operation Sealion commences and the English, who are so outgunned that they have individual artillery pieces defending several miles of ground, are no match for the combined Heer and Luftwaffe. England is forced to accept peace; the Allies are out of the war. No second front, no lend-lease for Russia.

-Operation Barbarossa is not delayed.

-Japan invades the USSR from the East.

-Germany doesn't delay total economic mobilisation until 1943, but instead does this early in the war, at least by 1941.

That last one is rather questionable so far as modern scholarship goes - Wages of Destruction being the main citation. As for the former... well, referencing the aforementioned again, everyone involved, including in the OKW, knew that the war was going to have a profound economic dimension. Similarly, they knew the Ultimate Enemy was the United States (which ties heavily into the regime's ideology and so on), and that the US would win an economic fight, and thus a protracted war. The war in Europe was in large part to try and pillage/seize a large enough industrial base to have a chance of combating the States in the long run, but at the same time every second that ticked on went in America's favor as they recovered further and further from the depths of the Depression. The odds of the US standing for a European hegemon were very, very slim, that's basic balance-of-power, and I don't think it's a fight Germany could win even in a 1v1 in the long term. And that's with fully uncommitted resources, not Germany being stretched to the wire trying to hold on to the balance of a continent against the will of its people.

Lastly, I think your analysis of Sealion is forgetting a slightly important thing. You know. The Royal Navy? I don't think a major amphibious operation has -ever- been conducted without reliable control of the waters in question, and given how logistically fraught they are at the best of times, the idea of one succeeding with no protection worth mentioning but land-based aviation (and from a force lacking good dedicated anti-shipping craft at that), against what was without question one of the three (arguably top two, or even the) strongest navies in the world? Forgive me if I take that with some salt.
 

jackalope81

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Wouldn't have caused a surrender. There are some great paintings of Napoleon watching a conquered Moscow burn. Maybe if the Germans made it to the Urals. When the other guy has death squads you don't surrender. It's also not that geographically far into Russia. Basically the equivalent of the U.S. surrendering if an invading army landed on the east coast and made it to Cleveland.
 

BestOfTheWest

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Ppl (both Russians and foreigners) often make the mistake to look at the (former) SU or the Russia of the nowadays and say: Woohaa, its sooooo biiiig...
Yes, it is, but only geographically.
Its the European part that really matters in terms of population and industry. Sibiria ist mostly wilderness.
 
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BBBD316

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It would all depend on Stalin and the personnel that may get cpatured/killed.

Without the focal point of the leadership who would have taken over? Does the military assume command? NKVD? the next highest ranked party officer?

The issue might be that you get a civil war erupt as the various forces battle for control, I know the Nazis were a bed of vipers, but the Russians weren't much better.

If the situation can't be quickly stabilised then the Germans just dig in and wait for everything to fall. How they hold on to it is another issue.
 

Evan05

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Ppl (both Russians and foreigners) often make the mistake to look at the (former) SU or the Russia of the nowadays and say: Woohaa, its sooooo biiiig...
Yes, it is, but only geographically.
Its the European part that really matters in terms of population and industry. Sibiria ist mostly wilderness.

Actually Stalin moved a large amount of industry into the Urals (It's even one of the national focuses in HOI4) incase the European part of the USSR was compromised.

With notable quantities of manpower in the Central Asian SSRs and a fair amount of industry moved into the Urals and into far western-Siberia, it wasn't only the European part that mattered.
 
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Invader_Canuck

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Well Moscow was the railway hub for the entire Northern section of USSR. Capturing Moscow would most likely cut off at minimum 70-80% of all supplies flowing to the finish border and Leningrad. Considering how much this extended the front for the Axis and how many troops would be freed up from this, it would actually mean quite a lot.

What would a few hundred thousand troops in Finland and surrounding Leningrad be able to do for the Axis?

If Germany had taken Moscow in the fall, Moscow would have almost certainly been an even larger disaster for Germany than Stalingrad was a year later. Germany was at the end of its rope in 1940, by that I mean it had out run its supply and logistical support. The soldiers were simply not prepared, mentally, physically or in terms of equipment to hold onto Moscow. Had Germany taken Moscow, the Soviet winter counter offensive still happens and Germany occupying Moscow was NOT going to fall back. Hitler would have ordered his armies to hold fast. Goering would have said he could air lift them, and you'd have almost certainly seen a total collapse of AGS.

As it was, since Germany had not yet actually taken Moscow, they were able to fall back in the face of the counter offensive and eventually blunt it.

Another poster made the comment about delaying the offensive to deal with Soviet armies in Ukraine. That was the correct decision. People don't really understand what was happening during the summer and fall. Surging headlong for Moscow ignoring a massive Soviet force on your southern flank would have been the ultimate in stupidity.

By the time Germany had reached Moscow, it was a spent force. It had taken casualties in the 6 months that it simply could not replace. The primary group structure that the Wehrmacht was built on, was GONE. The Primary groups died in the USSR and the Wehrmacht was never the same after that.

The reason? Yes, while Germany inflicted ~5 million irrecoverable (KIA, WIA, POW) losses on the USSR in that opening 6 months, the Red Army was launching brutal, suicidal, and ultimately effective counter offensives whenever they possibly could. These counter offensives have been largely glossed over, ignored, or they have been erased from the historical record as best as possible. The USSR tried to downplay or make go away these operations because they ultimately were embarrassing if you look at them in a zero sum light. They all failed in that respect, but they also succeeded in pulling Germany into a brutally costly slog. Germany paid dearly for its advance.

This is why leaving armies on an unprotected flank in the Ukraine was simply a non-starter. If you drive past them and leave them, they WERE going to attack, and they WOULD have caused massive problems.

As it turned out, Germany didn't take Moscow in the fall, and when the Soviets counter attacked in December they were not invested in Moscow. Taking Moscow for Germany would have been quite brief. At the end of 1940 Germany simply was not in the position to resist the Soviet counter offensive that came, and had they taken Moscow, ignored the armies in Ukraine, and stretched their supply lines and logistical capabilities even further. Well, the collapse of AGS is almost academic in that case.

Here is what happens if the armies in Ukraine are ignored. They begin launching attacks sometime in October or November. Since there are no strong military forces of sufficient strength in the area to actually blunt the offensives, you end up with even more logistical problems as they undoubtedly make some inroads, cutting some supply routes, and otherwise cause a big problem. At this point strength will HAVE to be stripped from the Moscow area to deal with these offensives in Ukraine. Those forces cannot come from anywhere else.

Then in December when the Soviet counter offensive hits, regardless of them holding Moscow or not it was coming, Germany is not outside of Moscow, the armies are IN Moscow. Germany was unable to resist the offensive historically, and it was allowed to fall back with the blow. In this situation there is absolutely no way Hitler is going to authorize a retreat from Moscow. The armies are going to turtle up, get encircled and now what?

How is AGS going to be rescued from Moscow in December and January? Logistically it is going to be weaker than it was historically. The casualties would have been enormous.
 
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In HoI4 it will probably matter quite a bit. As for what historical output it would have can only be speculated upon since we don't know what would have happened. Also this thread belongs in the history forums...
 
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Actually Stalin moved a large amount of industry into the Urals (It's even one of the national focuses in HOI4) incase the European part of the USSR was compromised.

With notable quantities of manpower in the Central Asian SSRs and a fair amount of industry moved into the Urals and into far western-Siberia, it wasn't only the European part that mattered.

To the Urals, OK. But what if the Wehrmacht gets there, move everything on to the Baikal?
Ural would have been the SUs "last stand", nothing but.

Central Asian SSRs... Once Moscow would fall, there is a high chance that the parts of the SU without a predominantly Russian population would start caring ever more about themselves then the SU.
 
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No idea

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I dont think it had mattered that much, apart from the morale effect, and even then the russians had the perfect propaganda effect on what happened with Napoleon.

In a life or death struggle you dont surrender until the enemy takes your country or kills the bastard leading it (Stalin, in this case). Same happened with Germany in 1945
 
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