Reality Check on a Merchant Empire Plan

[jwalche]

I am playing a 769 nomad game. I just had an initial expansion and pillaging; I subjugated Byzantine and Abbasid.

Now I will settle as tribe, and in about 10 years, become a merchant republic.

I want to do a few things I had never done before. I want to put a trade post in all coastal counties of the world. I do not want to "steal" any ducal+ title from their de jure land.

I am thinking about creating kingdom tier MRs outside of my empire to eventually make them my tributaries, and creating ducal MRs as my in-direct vassals to cover my empire where I and my own patricians will not cover.

For the kingdom tier MRs. I plan to use about a dozen titular kingdom titles that were created when I absorbed my vassal clans, and later inherited from the converted feudal vassal khans.

For the ducal MRs. I know that MR can't have own MR vassal. So I am planning to have them as vassals of my vassal khan. It will be disastrous if I ever inherit the feudal khan's court and vassals. So I plan to use a special vassal khan; I will reform Hellenic with Temporal, and give its religious head title to an illegitimated uncle. Then I will transfer count mayors to him, before giving a titular ducal title to each of them. There are a couple of existing ducal titles that I can take from AI. And I can use some religious head titles too. Some candidate MR counties have their own ducal title.

Does this plan make sense? Any technical issues that I haven't seen?

How many MRs will I want to cover the entire world's coast within 2~300 years?

How many trade posts should I aim for my own MR to cover within 200 years, without excessive exploiting?

 

[jonjowett]

How many MRs will I want to cover the entire world's coast within 2~300 years?

You will need at least 2: MRs cannot build trade posts on the "other side" of Sinai/Suez. This means that the MR world is forever split into two parts: Mediterranean/Atlantic/Baltic and Arabia/India. So, you need to choose a side.

You can definitely fill Arabia/India with one (player-controlled) MR, if you have the patience. And, indeed, this is the side I would choose because silk road MR tradeposts are awesome. However, AI-controlled MRs are much less effective - I'd want at least 7-8 to completely fill up the coast from the Med to the Baltic and 3-4 to fill the Indian side. Possibly a few more, just to be sure.

How many trade posts should I aim for my own MR to cover within 200 years, without excessive exploiting?

Well, there's an achievement for 80, so that's easily attainable. 100-120 is probably fine without too many exploits. (But there may not be 100 coastal provinces on the India side.)

 

[jwalche]

I was thinking "several" kingdom level tributary MRs, and also "several" ducal MRs as vassals of my feudal or theocratic vassal king.

Someone mentioned that, a while ago, it took all 700 years for his 7 vassal MRs to cover the world. I want to to cover in 300 years or so. But I got the idea. Thanks.

I guess I will move my capital to India then, and make a tributary MR or two in Egypt, which can be destroyed later if I want more coastal cities for my trade posts.

For the other side, I will put 12 or so in total then.

 

[Sunshine Moon]

Wait, is that western/eastern ocean split hardcoded? You can't overcome it even by directly holding territory on both coasts?

 

[Rockphed]

Ducal republics who are indirect vassals of merchant republics do not become merchant republics themselves.

 

[Rockphed]

Wait, is that western/eastern ocean split hardcoded? You can't overcome it even by directly holding territory on both coasts?

If you personally own a county on the wrong basin, you can build a trade post there up to your trade post limit. Otherwise, no dice.

 

[jwalche]

Ducal republics who are indirect vassals of merchant republics do not become merchant republics themselves.

Edit. Now I see what you mean. No, I will not transfer ducal republics. I will transfer count mayors, and give their first ducal title when they are not my direct vassals, and will safely remain as my indirect vassals after the transition.

For that king-tier direct vassal, I don't think feudal or republic government is safe. And MR is obviously not a choice. I am thinking about either using Hellenic religious head title, or converting a vassal khan to a king-priest before settling as tribal.

I love nomadic government, especially the ability to convert vassal clans to various other king tier governments, such as theocracy, as if they are stem cells. All you need is giving a barony of your desired government type, transferring a ducal vassal, and then absorbing the clan.

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Really? Is it because the player would be an MR?

When I transferred count mayors to my vassal khans, and gave them ducal titles, they became MR just fine even though they were my indirect vassals and still remained as indirect vassals.

 

[makaramus]

man crimea is great place to be merchant republic

 

[jwalche]

man crimea is great place to be merchant republic

I was in fact thinking about either Crimea or the close by Silk Road county as my capital. But I want to have either Alexander or Eastern version of it along the line. So Steppe is out.

 

[Boodas]

Edit. Now I see what you mean. No, I will not transfer ducal republics. I will transfer count mayors, and give their first ducal title when they are not my direct vassals, and will safely remain as my indirect vassals after the transition.

When I transferred count mayors to my vassal khans, and gave them ducal titles, they became MR just fine even though they were my indirect vassals and still remained as indirect vassals.

Merchant Republics cannot have vassal merchant republics underneath them. They will just become regular republics. Non-Merchant republic govermnents can have vassal merchant republics either as direct or indirect vassals as long as the direct liege and all top lieges are not merchant republics.

 

[jwalche]

Merchant Republics cannot have vassal merchant republics underneath them. They will just become regular republics. Non-Merchant republic govermnents can have vassal merchant republics either as direct or indirect vassals as long as the direct liege and all top lieges are not merchant republics.

Thanks. That would be a shame. Then I will collect a few more titular kingdom titles before settling, and go for more king tier tributary MRs.

 

[Seclouds]

You can settle as feudal, grand duchy to republic and make them become MR, grant independence and to flip back to tribal and to found MR again.
Then grant independence many other small size feudal.

And you can feed the small patrician 500 golds to make them keep building the trade posts. They always build one family place building at first, then start to build trade post. If you have enough patient you can feed every patrician and doge mayor. 15 golds multiple by 60 times for 900 golds, its totally insane shit clicking works.

I NEED THE INPUT BOX TO SEND ANY AMOUNT MONEY TO AI RULER.

And how to take titular kingdom titles? Founding new kingdom to clean the old de jure kingdom & empire?

 

[Seclouds]

And there are about 400 coastal countries at the western side of the world, and 80 or 90 at the eastern side.

The trade posts of vassal MR didn't connect to each others, I think independence 'powerful' MR would be better to work as the trade post builder. But the trade post war will make them too weak to defence the war against AI feudal rulers.

Hoping you guys sharing the thoughts to make this easier.

 

[jwalche]

And how to take titular kingdom titles? Founding new kingdom to clean the old de jure kingdom & empire?

It's easy as a nomad. If you absorb a vassal clan while 1. The clan has at least one barony title, 2. It has at least one ducal vassal, then the vassal clan becomes a king vassal with a titular kingdom title. After that you can either revoke or inherit the kingdom title.

These kingdom titles are completely de jure free, it has neither of liege nor vassal titles.

 

[jwalche]

But the trade post war will make them too weak to defence the war against AI feudal rulers.

I was thinking about, personally holding a barony at each MR that I plan to grant independence and leave a retinue there to protect it.

 

[majdavlk]

I think that a merchant republic cannot be under another merchant republic, even if there is a middle man between you, if you want a mr vassal as mr it needs to be tributary of some sorts.

You can fill the entire world with your own tradeposts if you have enghout relatives or dedicated enghout to murdering your fellow patricians.

Also you can build trade posts connecting the Indian Sea to European sea even without owning the counties, you can build the trade posts on one side and then move your capital. It will merge the trade zones, making you able to build a really long one that begins in Bengal and ends in Siberia.

 

[jonjowett]

Also you can build trade posts connecting the Indian Sea to European sea even without owning the counties, you can build the trade posts on one side and then move your capital. It will merge the trade zones, making you able to build a really long one that begins in Bengal and ends in Siberia.

IIRC, merchant republics are very restricted in their ability to move capital. I believe you can only do it by holding multiple top-level titles, changing your primary, and moving to the traditional capital of your new primary title. Further, you'll need both traditional capitals to be coastal (or you'll get a game over).

If you're a king, this is fine (eg. Venice <-> Lanka).

But if you're an emperor, there aren't many (or any?) de jure empires with coastal capitals on the Indian Ocean side. If there truly aren't any, you would need to form a custom empire on the Indian side, and use one of the many coastal-capital empires on the other side (Byzantium/Italia/Britannia/Scandinavia).

 

[majdavlk]

IIRC, merchant republics are very restricted in their ability to move capital. I believe you can only do it by holding multiple top-level titles, changing your primary, and moving to the traditional capital of your new primary title. Further, you'll need both traditional capitals to be coastal (or you'll get a game over).

If you're a king, this is fine. But if you're an emperor, there aren't many (or any?) de jure empires with coastal capitals on the Indian Ocean side. If there truly aren't any, you would need to form a custom empire on the Indian side, and use one of the many coastal-capital empires on the other side (Byzantium/Italia/Britannia/Scandinavia).

you dont need multiple top tier titles, 1 is enghout, just create your first capital on 1 side, build posts, then move it once to the other one.

 

[jonjowett]

you dont need multiple top tier titles, 1 is enghout, just create your first capital on 1 side, build posts, then move it once to the other one.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that is correct. Both my recollection and the wiki suggest that MRs have special restrictions for changing their capital.

Also, you would ideally want to be able to move your capital back and forth as needed - sometimes tradeposts get destroyed.

 

[majdavlk]

I'm sorry, but I don't think that is correct. Both my recollection and the wiki suggest that MRs have special restrictions for changing their capital.

then the wiki is incorect probably, i tested this in the last version

Also, you would ideally want to be able to move your capital back and forth as needed - sometimes tradeposts get destroyed.

you got a point there