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State Machine

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Peter, I didn't really intend my post to be a defense of the game as released, as that would be a bit difficult... Perhaps more of an attempt to state where Paradox goes with their games and that some people will never be satisfied, even after the major issues are fixed in patches.

Since I understand Darkmoor's review to be on a site for uber-grognards. I don't think they will ever like the game unless they accept what I think is Paradox's approach to games. Admittedly, a not very interesting argument at the moment...

BTW, it isn't necessary for me to have played the game to be aware of the problems. The beta forum and daily beta patches keep me well informed :D, and we are a month or so ahead of the public.
 

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I have been following this thread closely, as well as other similar threads on other boards, because of how grand Hearts of Iron (HoI) initially looked to me. I must admit, I am so terribly disappointed with the game design's implementation, especially the AI. In a lot of posts, I have noticed an apologetic atmosphere on behalf of Paradox Entertainment and Strategy First.

Some have bravely offered a defense of Paradox Entertainment and Strategy First. It has been suggested that we buy the game anyway so as to avoid a failure of a potentially great game. I will say that this is not a communal effort. As a consumer I am not in the habit of supporting my local game developer, any more than Paradox is willing to pass along a share of the profits. We have a pretty good system in place; the producer markets something of value, and we the consumers judge it and decide whether to buy it or not. My only concern is that other potential producers may erroneously conclude that lack of success by Paradox/Strategy First in the marketplace with HoI is due to lack of interest in both the genre and this style of game, instead of the correct conclusion which is their failure to provide a quality product. The only real influence we gamers can exert is not to buy the game. That is to send the simple message, that HoI is not valuable as it stands.

All other points aside, in this case, the only real issue is the complete inadequacy of the AI. There is no game to play (in Single Player mode). As far as I am concerned, all the rest is unnecessary noise. I'm not installing patch after mod after patch after mod and endlessly tweak HoI. The hobby is gaming, not doing Paradox's fixes for them.

Do I want HoI, Paradox and Strategy First to succeed--of course I do. The game looks like it could be so much fun, and I have no reason to begrudge either company a healthy profit for a job well done. But, get real people--just you wait for patch 1.02--you can't be serious. We're not talking at all about some obscure glitches that got by Quality Assurance (QA).

It has been mentioned that there are difficulties in developing a game; that we might be more understanding. And, so what! That is why these people are being paid. If it were easy, we'd all be gleefully hobbyshopping our own games.

I also disagree with the views regarding Grognards. I am one myself. I enjoy World in Flames, 1:285 WWII miniatures as well as Axis & Allies. We do have the presence of mind to understand when we are playing one or the other. It is not incorrect to be critical of HoI as has been expressed in this forum. HoI exists very definitely within an historical context and scenario. It is wholly logical to expect the game to perform according to general expectations for war games and for a WWII war game. Indeed, HoI is advertised and marketed as such. Is this not one of the many features that has so excited all of us speaking in this forum. Moreover, HoI's design very much paints a more--not less--historically realistic milieu. That is to say, the AI behaves according to arbitrary rules of some mythical alternate world, and it should not. It is incorrect to suggest that to point that out, one is being perhaps an overzealous Grognard.

Said with not so fine a point, I am confident in saying that we all know why we are interested in HoI and what Paradox has tried to create. To suddenly suggest that HoI was really meant to be something else, is the comedian slipping on a banana peel and saying, "I meant to do that."

Regarding the harshness and apparent complete lack of it in some reviews, I think Patric has done precisely what a reviewer is meant to do. That is, with the eye of a potential consumer, help him to avoid wasting his money and avoid disappointment. Let's not kill the messenger. His review is harsh because the product he reviewed is not at all well made.

If I were the only one to please, I would ask Paradox to slam on the brakes, take a step back and go through another major iteration. The guts of the thing are there and perhaps even a new sub-genre. Instead of a stream of patches and hundreds of spaghetti bug fixes, properly (re)write the AI, and in the not distant future release a solid product, that you can already tell will be a hit.

I wish Paradox Entertainment and Strategy First every success. And, if they get things sorted out with HoI, I'll be the first in line to buy my copy. In fact, I can hardly wait.

--Isaac Citrom
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
 

Johan

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Originally posted by icitrom
If I were the only one to please, I would ask Paradox to slam on the brakes, take a step back and go through another major iteration. The guts of the thing are there and perhaps even a new sub-genre. Instead of a stream of patches and hundreds of spaghetti bug fixes, properly (re)write the AI, and in the not distant future release a solid product, that you can already tell will be a hit.

Call me old-fashioned if you want to, but I kind of believe in the ideals of supporting current products before anything else.

I also believe that its possible to do alot of things in patches. (Actually I know :)
 

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Originally posted by State Machine
Perhaps more of an attempt to state where Paradox goes with their games and that some people will never be satisfied, even after the major issues are fixed in patches.

State Machine, I also haven’t played the game but like you I’ve been extensively reading the HOI forums. I’m also a big fan of Paradox.

It’s apparent that the game is incomplete so I won’t be buying it for now and there’s a good chance I won’t ever buy it. My point in writing is to ask if possibly we were expecting a completely different game from paradox than they intended to supply? When you sell a game that takes place between 1936-1947 and you get to play the countries that were at war with each other during that time would you think that it might possibly be a WWII war game? I think we all would say yes but therein lies the problem. From all that I have read it appears that HOI is really a fantasy war game with a thin layer of history thrown over it. I’ve read where players have taken Hungary and conquered Russia. Or Japan and conquered the USA. I’m sorry but this isn’t a what if situation it’s a pure fantasy situation. Now before someone starts with the " I don’t want to play in a straight jacket answer" I want to clearly say that in any game that is promoted as a WWII war game there are always going to be limits on what you can do otherwise what’s the challenge of playing lets say Japan? There is no "what if" that could have happened for Japan to invade and conquer the USA. I think you could make a case for them finding a way to fight the USA to a stalemate but even that would be a minor miracle requiring an amazing string of events to pull off but at least it would be fun as in "it's a challenge".

But in HOI it seems that you can take most any country and make it a world power which is why I’m asking if it really isn’t a pure fantasy war game? I don’t have a problem with fantasy war games I just like to know what it is that I’m buying when I buy it not after I’ve paid for it. I have to say that the more I read about HOI the more depressed I get. So much hope and so little realized. I hope no one writes saying just wait for the patch because I was hoping for a WWII game that would make it a challenge to play but still keep it somewhat in line with what it was really possible to do during that period of history. I can excuse the wild possibilities in EU because of the 400-year time frame but not in a game that covers only a dozen years.

Joe
 
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Originally posted by State Machine
Peter, I didn't really intend my post to be a defense of the game as released, as that would be a bit difficult... Perhaps more of an attempt to state where Paradox goes with their games and that some people will never be satisfied, even after the major issues are fixed in patches.

Since I understand Darkmoor's review to be on a site for uber-grognards. I don't think they will ever like the game unless they accept what I think is Paradox's approach to games. Admittedly, a not very interesting argument at the moment...

BTW, it isn't necessary for me to have played the game to be aware of the problems. The beta forum and daily beta patches keep me well informed :D, and we are a month or so ahead of the public.

Blimmey! Uber-grogs?

Nooooo... not that i've seen anyway. Gameplay-addicts, yes, uber-grogs - no. At least - i don't think so.

A grog-game is, for me, Combat Mission - ability to fairly accurately recreate a number of disparate encounters without any grand "overview" or campaign (which would render the accuracy null and void). Airborne Assault also - good grog game that. Panzer General - fun gameplay - not a grogs game though really?

Gameplay people always want the big "what-if?" scenario's and grand campaigns... Grogs often aren't bothered so long as they can mimic "their little favourite battle or micro-campaign".

Currently - lets face it, if the AI wont build units there's practically no gameplay at all...nor indeed any grog-play.

That's fundamental stuff. Grog or gameplay fan...and nobody can really be "satisfied" with it.

Im playing Jedi-Knight and beyond the first room there are no bad guys.... Do i score it 9/10? Is it good? Is it finished? Is it worth buying?

- - -

Reviewing games is an odd thing: Its far more "dangerous" to write a glowing review than a bad one - that may seem odd but with a glowing review people go out and spend their money on it. All those little "foibles" you forget to mention they experience - they are there in the game after all - you just didn't mention them. That upsets people. They stop trusting your opinion...and well they should.

Nowadays many online sites have inumerous "reviewers" - many of which (most of which) are now unpaid volunteers who may review the odd game now and again. Most often games that they like to play themselves. They do so in "spare time" and a get a freebie copy as a result.

Some are good , most are awful... and generally because they fail to realise there is a responsibility in writing a review that costs people their hard-earned moolah.

Few have any real direct contact with their readership, fewer still any contact or experience in the gaming industry.

"I played it a bit and it seemed allright lets give it, hmm, say 9 our of 10"

That isn't a review. It says nothing at all about the "worth" of the game....giving scores has always been a bane of my life. When I wrote for magazines they always wanted a score.. drove me nuts... never having seen a 10 how can you give marks out of 10? What's your baseline?

If HoI was without any bug other than the failure of the AI to build units would it surely not still score zero? I've no idea - but its apparent that many "reviewers" believe it stills cores 9/10...despite the abscence of any competition within the game.

Its why we don't give scores - they are worthless..and nothing more than a means to rrank games without having tor ead the actual review.

Where games have "show-stoppers" they is actually little need to go beyond outlining those show-stoppers and "that's it". One can never honestly adivse the purchase of that game until its resolved - after which you can review it, but not until then.

So ironic as it may seem, good (positive) reviews need to be carefully detailed and bad (negative) reviews , in the worst cases, need only say "Ooops! uh-uh! Don't buyit! Show-stopper alert!".


The "rub" and the "responsibility" for the reviewer comes later - you needs must also ensure you clearly re-review once that show-stopper is gone...and if you consider most of the current netzines you can see clearly how rare those occurences are.

"It used to be shit but now its great" is a perfectly valid review... and far more "appropriate", imo, than posting out a glowing review that fails to alert the gamer to flaws, especially where those flaws are recognised by the designers themselves and present on their own official bug list and purchaser of the game can avoid.

Style, presentation and spelling within a review, let alone html quality, are irrelevant where the review does not actually review.

"that some people will never be satisfied, even after the major issues are fixed in patches" is a given - that is differing opinion....but that does not mean that the very existence of the need for major patches, or any "belief" that they may ultimately even transpire, absolves a reviewer from pointing those major issues out - or failing to take them into consideration for a "score".

You review what is in your hands - not what may be coming sometime in the future - that is called a preview - with an entirely different set of rules.

- - -

Sorry for the length of the post - i can tend to ramble on - and please bear in mind I am generalising here, trying to avoid any specifics to HoI other than as a reference point.

My only consideration in reviews is to my readership, and the trust they place in me to say it as i see it. That they often chose to follow my recomendations is the greatest accolade i can get...and as such the feelings of the designers, testers and fans of a game are scondary at best.

That may not seem alltogether "nice" but that is where my loyalties are firmly entrenched. It is also why i no longer write for certain publications - which should say enough on its own about that side of things. (It happens, i've experienced it, don't believe otherwise.)
 

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I won`t answer in detail as I´m bound to the NDA, but I´m pretty sure, that you will change the "don`t buy it" line to "buy it, it`s a gem" :) ... or as Johan said:

Originally posted by Johan
Call me old-fashioned if you want to, but I kind of believe in the ideals of supporting current products before anything else.

I also believe that its possible to do alot of things in patches. (Actually I know :)

I wouldn`t "waste" hours over hours on that game for free, if I wouldn`t believe in Paradoxs/Johans/Patrics/Grevens/Doomies abilities. and btw., I´m a long term wargamer, for 16 years now to be exact.
 

icitrom

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Johan, firstly I do understand your difficulties vis-à-vis time-to-market pressures. And, I do not, nor am I in a position to question the quality of your work. We both know that this product had no business going gold. It's evidently still in alpha, much less beta. I'd be insulted if you told me that one or more individuals did not say something like, "ship it anyway. We'll deal with the rest later." Unless your QA department is non-existant, you must have seen all that was wrong, including unresolved fatal exceptions.

I too believe in supporting a product after release. But, we aren't talking about that at all--are we? We're talking about finishing the product after it has shipped; after it's gone to press and been sold. And, finishing the product remotely via patches does not wash. An analogy with any consumer good would be valid in this case: "buy the car, we'll ship you the rear suspension in a couple of months."

I don't wish to bash Paradox on its own forum. I am sincerely hoping for the best for HoI, and I'd like very much to buy a copy of the game eventually. But, it's going to be a really tough sell if you guys are thining that you've put one over on the gaming community. i.e.: "Oops, where did all those bugs come from?! The AI doesn't work?! Why didn't someone say something?!"--c'mon!

I have read various posts talking about patch 1.02. If it delivers a solid AI, but there are still outstanding issues, I'd buy a copy at that time. I could play the game, and I'd wait for the eventual other patches to fix everything else. I just don't see a reason to buy today (and I'm eager to buy)--the game's not playable.

In any case, I'm sure things will work out eventually and HoI will be a great game. I just wanted to respond to this notion of "support".

--Isaac
 

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Isaac,

There are a couple of things I would like to comment in your last post.

1. "It's evidently still in alpha, much less beta." I think we have very different definitions of those terms.
2. "..including unresolved fatal exceptions." If you think that we'd ship with CTDs knowingly... :rolleyes:
3. "I don't wish to bash Paradox on its own forum." You just did.
4. "I just don't see a reason to buy today (and I'm eager to buy)--the game's not playable." I was under the impression that you at least have to try it once to come to that conclusion.

My email is pb@paradoxplaza.com if you wish to discuss this further.


Patric
 

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I've played the game extensively, and I think Isaac is essentially right, even if exaggerated some points.

And he was even quite polite about it.

The game does feel like a middle Beta.

It was shipped with major CtDs (and broken or entirely absent features).

It's not really playable...

I have the highest hopes for upcoming patches, and for multiplayer possibilities.
 

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Originally posted by Patric
Isaac,

There are a couple of things I would like to comment in your last post.

1. "It's evidently still in alpha, much less beta." I think we have very different definitions of those terms.
2. "..including unresolved fatal exceptions." If you think that we'd ship with CTDs knowingly... :rolleyes:
3. "I don't wish to bash Paradox on its own forum." You just did.
4. "I just don't see a reason to buy today (and I'm eager to buy)--the game's not playable." I was under the impression that you at least have to try it once to come to that conclusion.

My email is pb@paradoxplaza.com if you wish to discuss this further.


Patric

Sorry Patric but I think Isaac is right. I have invested a lot of time in reading this forum (costing me more than buying HOI, but that's another discussion) but for me it's clear that Paradox has made a few mistakes.

Nevertheless I still want to support Paradox and this board, but the discussion should be fair and open.

I hope that's possible :)
 
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Paradox Interactive

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Originally posted by AVN
Sorry Patric but I think Isaac is right. I have invested a lot of time in reading this forum (costing me more than buying HOI, but that's another discussion) but for me it's clear that Paradox has made a few mistakes.

Nevertheless I still want to support Paradox and this board, but the discussion should be fair and open.

I hope that's possible :)

What can I say, the evidence of mistakes would be that we are updating the game but I still feel that Isaac's post was very unfair and that is why I replied to it.

And last but certainly not least: Thanks for your support AVN! I really mean that!


Patric
 

State Machine

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Originally posted by icitrom
...

I also disagree with the views regarding Grognards. I am one myself. I enjoy World in Flames, 1:285 WWII miniatures as well as Axis & Allies. We do have the presence of mind to understand when we are playing one or the other. It is not incorrect to be critical of HoI as has been expressed in this forum. HoI exists very definitely within an historical context and scenario. It is wholly logical to expect the game to perform according to general expectations for war games and for a WWII war game. Indeed, HoI is advertised and marketed as such. Is this not one of the many features that has so excited all of us speaking in this forum. Moreover, HoI's design very much paints a more--not less--historically realistic milieu. That is to say, the AI behaves according to arbitrary rules of some mythical alternate world, and it should not. It is incorrect to suggest that to point that out, one is being perhaps an overzealous Grognard.

...
I'm sorry. My intent was to not insult grognards, as a class, as being unable to see that HoI is a different type of game that tends to avoid deterministic approaches. But, my experience with EU2 (and seemingly HoI) is that there seems to be a very large class of serious gamers who despise serious divergence from what happened historically. I applaud Paradox for trying to craft a game that allows plausible varience from what happened in real life. If it works, that is...

As I implied before, I shouldn't have even brought this point up. The game is not at a state to judge whether Paradox's design approaches will achieve that or not. Only with patches will we see.

BTW, it is important to emphasize that these are my personal opinions. I might be a beta tester, but I've never seen the design document. I don't know if features have been dropped or dumbed down on purpose to meet release dates, etc. In short, I have no idea what Paradox's intentions were at the beginning of the project, or are at this moment. But, I do have some thoughts based on past Paradox history.

Darkmoor - I just had a couple of minor quibbles... ;) But, I think your approach is way better than the crap the commercial zines release. :)
 

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Originally posted by Havard
Latest beta hands-off I ran today they had 156 divisions. Is that better?

Yes, much. I didn't like CIV3 very much, but the one aspect I found very appealing was the horde of units it would attack you with. Sure the AI lacked brilliance, but it was a formidable opponent that would humble the lazy gamer and crush the gamer who made too many little errors or just one big one.

I don't program, so I cannot understand why a computer can beat Gary Kasparov at chess, a classic strategy game, and be so utterly anemiac at every other gaming genre at the same time. Until this paradox is broken, mass and cheats are the only AI options.

If the Germans ALWAYS have upwards of 150 some odd divisions, I will be the first one to download the patch.
 

unmerged(1095)

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Originally posted by Zeppelin
Yes, much. I didn't like CIV3 very much, but the one aspect I found very appealing was the horde of units it would attack you with. Sure the AI lacked brilliance, but it was a formidable opponent that would humble the lazy gamer and crush the gamer who made too many little errors or just one big one.

I don't program, so I cannot understand why a computer can beat Gary Kasparov at chess, a classic strategy game, and be so utterly anemiac at every other gaming genre at the same time. Until this paradox is broken, mass and cheats are the only AI options.

If the Germans ALWAYS have upwards of 150 some odd divisions, I will be the first one to download the patch.

Funny enough someone posted just why it is easier to program a Chess AI.
Do a search for "chess" and see if it comes up :)
 

icitrom

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Patric, I'm sorry you think my posts are unfair. I'm not certain if it is not really a case of whether I am actually being unfair, or you just don't like what I said.

What I mean by that I don't wish to bash Paradox in its own forum is that, firstly, I do indeed appreciate Paradox hosting an open and honest forum where they permit strong criticisms. Secondly, I do sympathise with the developers who have probably put their heart and soul into this project. What I think is unfair is that someone or some people at Paradox pushed HoI out the door before it was ready, thus drawing this negativity. I'm not responsible for the AI being under par. I am responding as a consumer, with, I believe, valid points.

Moreover, I'm not responding in order to just stir things up. I'm a bit insensed at the whole underlying notion that Paradox is trying to sell, that of releasing a so obviously flawed product (I assume to take advantage of Christmas sales), and then arguing that it is somehow the consumer's responsibility to help Paradox finish up by installing patches and mods. What's Jusge Judy's line? "Don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining."

What would be completely fair and legitimate would be a slew of accurate reviews, the consumer responding in kind, such that sales are horrible, and Paradox having no indication from us at all beside our voting with our pocketbooks. You do agree, don't you, that that is the system under which we all operate. Time and again I have heard people associated with Paradox mention something like, "thanks for your support." What's that all about? Is this the Developers' Assistance Fund. From my perspective, I am certain that HoI will not be the last of its kind. Another company will have the opportunity to write a similar product and ask for my $40-$80, and still supply a solid AI. Wouldn't all that be fair?

In any case, we are where we are. I'm willing to wait for patch 1.0x until the AI is ready and has a playable game for me to play. I sincerely hope you are not suggesting that I buy now and as a matter of "support" I leave the game on my shelf until the correct patch is available.

How do I know the AI is not working at all? Based on your very own detailed review and scores of posts. At this point, you might say something like, "damn it, I should have said nothing, and I would have suckered Isaac into buying a copy now."

Do I really need to buy a copy now in order to legitimize my comments. Is not your review accurate? Just say you made it all up, and this whole conversation ends now. I'm off to my gaming store, upset that someone fooled me such a well crafted fake review. By the way, I notice that there is no demo available for HoI that people could download and try out before buying.

I'm actually quite eager to play the game. But, I'm not interested in wasting my time to find out that I can do silly things like sail a giant fleet right by an enemy fleet, or one of the many, many other AI related things that have been posted all over these forums.

I notice you invited me to continue this offline. That's OK. I won't post anymore after this one. My intention is not to undermine Paradox. Though, I hope you will acknowledge that it wasn't me who slept with the intern, so-to-speak, in the first place.

--Isaac
 

Peter Ebbesen

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Originally posted by Uglyduck
Funny enough someone posted just why it is easier to program a Chess AI.
Do a search for "chess" and see if it comes up :)
An even shorter answer is: the alpha-beta algorithm. :D

Chess is one of the simplest games to program an AI for yet non-programmers keep using it as an example of complexity. Sigh.
 

Paradox Interactive

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Originally posted by icitrom
Patric, I'm sorry you think my posts are unfair. I'm not certain if it is not really a case of whether I am actually being unfair, or you just don't like what I said.

I'm certain if that counts for anything ...

Originally posted by icitrom
What I mean by that I don't wish to bash Paradox in its own forum is that, firstly, I do indeed appreciate Paradox hosting an open and honest forum where they permit strong criticisms. Secondly, I do sympathise with the developers who have probably put their heart and soul into this project. What I think is unfair is that someone or some people at Paradox pushed HoI out the door before it was ready, thus drawing this negativity. I'm not responsible for the AI being under par. I am responding as a consumer, with, I believe, valid points.

That is why I left you my mail address. So you could continue via email if you wanted. Did you know that Paradox is the developer that you sympathise with? Paradox is not a publisher!

Originally posted by icitrom
Moreover, I'm not responding in order to just stir things up. I'm a bit insensed at the whole underlying notion that Paradox is trying to sell, that of releasing a so obviously flawed product (I assume to take advantage of Christmas sales), and then arguing that it is somehow the consumer's responsibility to help Paradox finish up by installing patches and mods. What's Jusge Judy's line? "Don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining."

Ok, fair apart from the fact that you always seem to insinuate that this whole thing is a conspiracy to release product that isn't finished.
Btw, I don't know who Judy is so I guess I have to trust you on that one.

Originally posted by icitrom
What would be completely fair and legitimate would be a slew of accurate reviews, the consumer responding in kind, such that sales are horrible, and Paradox having no indication from us at all beside our voting with our pocketbooks. You do agree, don't you, that that is the system under which we all operate. Time and again I have heard people associated with Paradox mention something like, "thanks for your support." What's that all about? Is this the Developers' Assistance Fund. From my perspective, I am certain that HoI will not be the last of its kind. Another company will have the opportunity to write a similar product and ask for my $40-$80, and still supply a solid AI. Wouldn't all that be fair?

Paradox is a very small company and as such each purchase of the game will count. That is the reason we thank people who bought our games. Maybe it isn't the normal way to do things and it may also clash with how people use the English language but we think it is common courtesy.

Originally posted by icitrom
In any case, we are where we are. I'm willing to wait for patch 1.0x until the AI is ready and has a playable game for me to play. I sincerely hope you are not suggesting that I buy now and as a matter of "support" I leave the game on my shelf until the correct patch is available.

Where did I suggest that or even hint at that?

Originally posted by icitrom
How do I know the AI is not working at all? Based on your very own detailed review and scores of posts. At this point, you might say something like, "damn it, I should have said nothing, and I would have suckered Isaac into buying a copy now."

Review? What review???
If you don't like what HoI is then you should not buy it. End of Story!

Originally posted by icitrom
Do I really need to buy a copy now in order to legitimize my comments. Is not your review accurate? Just say you made it all up, and this whole conversation ends now. I'm off to my gaming store, upset that someone fooled me such a well crafted fake review. By the way, I notice that there is no demo available for HoI that people could download and try out before buying.

Did I tell you to buy the game? I said: "I was under the impression that you at least have to try it once to come to that conclusion."

Originally posted by icitrom
I'm actually quite eager to play the game. But, I'm not interested in wasting my time to find out that I can do silly things like sail a giant fleet right by an enemy fleet, or one of the many, many other AI related things that have been posted all over these forums.

Ok

Originally posted by icitrom
I notice you invited me to continue this offline. That's OK. I won't post anymore after this one. My intention is not to undermine Paradox. Though, I hope you will acknowledge that it wasn't me who slept with the intern, so-to-speak, in the first place.

--Isaac

That was related to your reluctance to bash us on our own forums. Sleeping with interns is nothing we do on this side of the pond. I guess you should look south for that :)


Patric
 

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Originally posted by State Machine
I'm sorry. My intent was to not insult grognards, as a class, as being unable to see that HoI is a different type of game that tends to avoid deterministic approaches. But, my experience with EU2 (and seemingly HoI) is that there seems to be a very large class of serious gamers who despise serious divergence from what happened historically. I applaud Paradox for trying to craft a game that allows plausible varience from what happened in real life. If it works, that is...

As I implied before, I shouldn't have even brought this point up. The game is not at a state to judge whether Paradox's design approaches will achieve that or not. Only with patches will we see.

BTW, it is important to emphasize that these are my personal opinions. I might be a beta tester, but I've never seen the design document. I don't know if features have been dropped or dumbed down on purpose to meet release dates, etc. In short, I have no idea what Paradox's intentions were at the beginning of the project, or are at this moment. But, I do have some thoughts based on past Paradox history.

Darkmoor - I just had a couple of minor quibbles... ;) But, I think your approach is way better than the crap the commercial zines release. :)


Avoid Deterministic approaches?

Palausible variance?


Could you please explain these concepts, examples of either would help me understand. I'll try and explain my understanding of them.

Everthing in life has parameters we may not have found them all yet but rest assured they are there. What I like in a computer game is a plausible enviroment which is no more than a simplification of the world which that game potrays whether its sci-fi, fantasy or historical. Whats the point in producing a game about Middle-Earth if it in fact bears no relation to that world for instance.......

In my understanding if you do not want a "deterministic" world (this word which I have only came into contact recently seems to be used by people that like to suspend reality) why not have a random world generator like say Imperialism (good game) But if you are producing a "historical game" set in a "historical world" with a "geography" and "DEMOGRAPHICS" we are fundementally familiar with you are not being "deterministic" to ask for that world and how it operates to be believable if the game in question is meant to represent a certain world in a certain period.

Once that believable world is set up the player should be free to make his choices with a plausible variance to it's history If he wants to claim the one ring or feels Grouchy should help Napoleon or feels that a "stop order" interferes with his war aims in 1940 then so be it. I also believe if a Japanese player wants to strike at Russia instead of the USA or if playing Germany you want a luftwaffe full of Me 262's that would be fine.
 

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I not looking for a deterministic replication of WW2.

I am looking for a game where it is POSSIBLE to replicate the historical events, but which allows you to freely explore alternatives.

As it stands HoI cannot relaly replicate history for various reasons (many of them balance and AI related).

It does however have the potential to "get there" both through official patching which Paradox is adept at, and through user modification, which the COMMUNITY is also adept at, and for which Paradox has provided maximum support in the form of config files.

So I retain my optimism.