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Nexxes

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That's what happens when Paradox focuses on MPs and doesn't care of the people who like playing SP and make achievements.

Are you kidding me?
How are they solely focusing on the multiplayer part of the game?
I for one like to play that game SP too and when I do I won't conquer the world.

So? Since the last patch I enjoy playing a free City in the HRE, doing so requires me to stay OPM.
What is wrong with that?
Why should PDS favour one of us over the other? They favour exacly what they want. And I like that.
The game is now certainly more challenging, but more entertaining too. (Out of my perspective I must say)

EU IV never stated to be a game about blobbing out with no real challange.
Let's face it, for most of us here it is not normal to loose. Why would we? That's no fun right?
But why is that? I just don't get it, I had many Ironman games where I would horribly loose.

Should PDS just make this game so easy that we all can just blob out and conquer the world?

Certainly not.
 
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Why are you doing nothing?

If you don't have the MPs to core more or diploannex more or develop more, then you should be doing one of the following:

1. Fighting wars for other reasons (force release, transfer trade power, enforce peace vs expansionist rival, humiliate for PP / prestige)
2. Colonizing

#1 never used to be a reasonable thing because acquiring more territory was always cheap enough that if you could manage a war, you could find a way to grow as a result.

Since that's not necessarily the case anymore due to increased costs, maybe try fighting wars for other reasons.

If you're also out of manpower and ducats then yeah you have to wait for awhile to recover. But that's not something new because of this patch.
 
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Ceryse

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I don't get why people who believe the cost of coring and diplomatic annexation is too high don't mod the cost. I'm serious, you can change the cost, so find a level that you like and the problem is solved, no? Feel the problem is the number of diplomats you get? Add an additional diplomat, either to the base, or tied to something else. Unless you're tied to achievements I don't see why simple modding is a non-starter for some.

Personally, I mod the game slightly, to suit my tastes (for example, I've halved the amount of tech cost reduction from neighbours being ahead of you, boosted the started tech level of tech types like Chinese, as well as slightly reduced their tech malus and have slightly modified the ideas of certain countries to make them stronger, such as Morocco). It took me all of seven minutes to do this once I figured out what areas of vanilla I wanted to alter. I also play Ironman, albeit a self-enforced form (which I would do regardless because I don't trust games to not crash or screw up a save and cost me an entire play-through).

Paradox cannot, and should not, even attempt to cater to the many crowds of EU4 fans. You have people who despise blobbing, people who play the game solely for the blobbing and various degrees of both. They cannot cater to just those groups with the vanilla game; thankfully the game is easily moddable. Paradox chose their design for the game, and it is perfectly valid. I'm currently playing a vanilla version (wanted to suss out if I wanted to change the costs) with Muscovy and invading various places whenever possible. Coring and diplomatic annexation are costly, so I've altered my playstyle a touch (primarily in the ideas I'd choose) to compensate, albeit primarily in that I'm taking Influence as my second idea group where normally I'd never touch it in a Muscovy/Russia game, and I always take Administration first anyways for the reduced coring cost as the idea group easily pays for itself. I'll probably go Religious or Expansion third, and so far I'm not too hurting for monarch points. Granted, I've only developed one province once, and that just to notch it up for an additional building spot I wanted. I've managed to take out Novgorod, take a small bite out of Lithuania (which was hard, due to it being under Poland.. who also has Bohemia under a PU and neither Austria nor Hungary would join wars due to debt), eat into the Golden Horde and Kazan, while getting Tver and Ryazan as vassals diplomatically. I'm on pace for slightly slower expansion than under pre 1.12 where my Russia ends up with all Russian lands, Greece, the Balkans, Scandinavia, Italy, Anatolia, Egypt, Persia, Japan, Manchuria and chunks of India, China and Central Europe.
 
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Tweakee

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To be honest, i dont see how anyone that actually wants to expand with the next patch will ever be able to do it without influence and administrative for vassal anex and province conquest respectively. I just think those 2 groups are a complete must now...

For me, that's the worst part of the changes... they're balanced around requiring two specific idea groups. That's reducing strategic options.
 
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grommile

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To be honest, i dont see how anyone that actually wants to expand with the next patch will ever be able to do it without influence and administrative for vassal anex and province conquest respectively. I just think those 2 groups are a complete must now...
Challenge accepted. I'm thinking Religious, Trade, Quality, Economic, Espionage, Offensive.
 

Jomini

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Why are you doing nothing?

If you don't have the MPs to core more or diploannex more or develop more, then you should be doing one of the following:

1. Fighting wars for other reasons (force release, transfer trade power, enforce peace vs expansionist rival, humiliate for PP / prestige)
2. Colonizing

#1 never used to be a reasonable thing because acquiring more territory was always cheap enough that if you could manage a war, you could find a way to grow as a result.

Since that's not necessarily the case anymore due to increased costs, maybe try fighting wars for other reasons.

If you're also out of manpower and ducats then yeah you have to wait for awhile to recover. But that's not something new because of this patch.

So obviously you've never actually done this as "force release" costs posts, transfer trade power costs a slot (and hence points), enforce peace takes up a lot of diplomat time (which is now being spent for decades at a time on integration). I'll give you humiliate ... unless of course your rivals end up allied to your allies, you run out of viable rivals (pretty common for the RotW), or, you know that giant 15 year truce timer kicks in ... or if I'm already sitting high on power projection because I bulked my vassal up off my rival.

Colonizing? You have GOT to be kidding me. Assuming I take, one of the two ideas, great at ADM 5 (which is hellishly far off for a lot of the RotW) and have range to get anywhere (e.g. at least dip tech 7 for anyone not blessed with good geography) and I finally put my colonist down. Great that is one click in 10 years. Maybe, if I'm Castille with all colonists possible it might require me to make 3 decisions per decade and most of those will be bog standard and boring (oh yeah, the most efficient colony spot left in Canada is Stadacone). Oh and let's not forget that colonizing is mostly worthless if you don't have a connection or feed a good node to collect in.


You can pretend that waiting for a timer to ding is challenging all you want; all it does it make it impossible for blobs to lose and for any efficient game to become a simple linear optimization routine.
 
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TheGrouch91

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To be honest, i dont see how anyone that actually wants to expand with the next patch will ever be able to do it without influence and administrative for vassal anex and province conquest respectively. I just think those 2 groups are a complete must now...

I dont know what you are talking about. I started as Tuscany and am now a united Italy in 1570 and I am by far the strongest and richest nation. I also developed a ton of stuff already as I often had a MP surplus. And I could've been even faster if it wasnt for a very unlucky alliance chain with France and Venice + Naples.

I took Plutocratic, Diplomatic and Economic. Working on Quality and have no problem finishing it really quickly.

So I think this really affects only the hardcore WC player that want to blob with minimal difficulties and just map paint for no reason other than to... well map paint. Everyone who wants to expand on a resonable level can very easily do so without having to use the "Holy Trinity" of ideas.
 
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grommile

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So it takes away a diplomat, lots of points. Never a WC fan, but good luck trying now.
I'm fully expecting the usual suspects to pull off a world conquest before the end of July.
 

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I'm fully expecting the usual suspects to pull off a world conquest before the end of July.

It's definitely still possible. Any country with an instant integration decision can easily absorb Europe and protectorate the rest. The Ottomans can still almost certainly one tag. And I'm sure those aren't the only options, but those options are so vastly superior to just about all the others now that it's scarcely a conversation.
 

Sparticulous

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I like the changes. there are ideas to reduce the cost. and some nations have reduction for coring or integration (russia and OE for example have reduce core costs i think)
 
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Jomini

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I dont know what you are talking about. I started as Tuscany and am now a united Italy in 1570 and I am by far the strongest and richest nation. I also developed a ton of stuff already as I often had a MP surplus. And I could've been even faster if it wasnt for a very unlucky alliance chain with France and Venice + Naples.

I took Plutocratic, Diplomatic and Economic. Working on Quality and have no problem finishing it really quickly.

So I think this really affects only the hardcore WC player that want to blob with minimal difficulties and just map paint for no reason other than to... well map paint. Everyone who wants to expand on a resonable level can very easily do so without having to use the "Holy Trinity" of ideas.


Oh please, all this does is make World Conquest tedious. An OE, HRE (or Hindu) can still load up on quite a few -cost modifiers and one-tag the world. Yeah you may need to avoid taking too many paper ideas and likely have to run paper focus for the back half of the game ... but any dedicated WC player who could easily do it before, can do it again now (Papal influence for stability, HRE for bonuses, free westernization with Western Focus, and maybe inherit a few PUs should be quite doable for a one -tag). Without a one tag this becomes trivial using Protectorates.

The annoying thing is that anything other than the cost reducing ideas are vastly less efficient. Sure you can grow to historical size; you have to be incompetent not to if you can manage to never lose a war. It just is slow and tedious. As long as you play slow enough, the game is easy and the challenges are minimal.

Now sure if you want to take easy mode, go for it, it's your game. But don't force the rest of us into the sandbox. I, for one, want the AI to be able to expand well to provide a challenge. However expensive expansion is for the human, the AI is always worse. I dislike all this anti-map painting BS that doesn't even work always kneecapping the AI so it ends up in massive debt, with low stab, and high WE rendering it incapable of providing a challenge. The AI already has hellish problems with rebels and the new fort system (hello unending nationalism), making it stagnate its navy or get slapped with a "surprise we take Aristo and run the policy" to nerf its expansion is not what I signed up for. I want a challenging game, not a slow one. I want a game with historical mechanisms with "unparalleled freedom" not a slow drudge match of watching timers tick while I have no strategic decisions to make.

You like easy mode, we get it. Anything that allows other people to outperform you is offensive. We got it. Can we just try making the game challenging with many interesting decisions of consequence and hard trade offs rather than a simple linear optimization?
 
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doktorstick

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The fundamental game design problem with the arguably overly high costs is that it limits the play of the warmonger blobber, and forces them into a predictable and repeatable set of ideas to help mitigate the penalties of their playstyle. The flipside, low-to-mid costs do not harm the playstyle of the non-warmonger blobber--they can still not blob through their own sheer willpower and restraint. They have a diverse set of ideas to choose from, and are not forced to choose. With building tall in Common Sense, this is even more true.

That's the problem in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with historical vs. ahistorical vs. those who want to blob vs. those that don't. It removes choice and curtails desire, pure and simple.
 
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TheGrouch91

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Oh please, all this does is make World Conquest tedious. An OE, HRE (or Hindu) can still load up on quite a few -cost modifiers and one-tag the world. Yeah you may need to avoid taking too many paper ideas and likely have to run paper focus for the back half of the game ... but any dedicated WC player who could easily do it before, can do it again now (Papal influence for stability, HRE for bonuses, free westernization with Western Focus, and maybe inherit a few PUs should be quite doable for a one -tag). Without a one tag this becomes trivial using Protectorates.

The annoying thing is that anything other than the cost reducing ideas are vastly less efficient. Sure you can grow to historical size; you have to be incompetent not to if you can manage to never lose a war. It just is slow and tedious. As long as you play slow enough, the game is easy and the challenges are minimal.

Now sure if you want to take easy mode, go for it, it's your game. But don't force the rest of us into the sandbox. I, for one, want the AI to be able to expand well to provide a challenge. However expensive expansion is for the human, the AI is always worse. I dislike all this anti-map painting BS that doesn't even work always kneecapping the AI so it ends up in massive debt, with low stab, and high WE rendering it incapable of providing a challenge. The AI already has hellish problems with rebels and the new fort system (hello unending nationalism), making it stagnate its navy or get slapped with a "surprise we take Aristo and run the policy" to nerf its expansion is not what I signed up for. I want a challenging game, not a slow one. I want a game with historical mechanisms with "unparalleled freedom" not a slow drudge match of watching timers tick while I have no strategic decisions to make.

You like easy mode, we get it. Anything that allows other people to outperform you is offensive. We got it. Can we just try making the game challenging with many interesting decisions of consequence and hard trade offs rather than a simple linear optimization?


I find your assumption that I want "easy mode" rather offensive. I actually find mindless blobbing to be easy mode as you become big so quickly that no one could possibly stop you anymore in just a couple of wars. After that it is mindless (easy) map painting. I find that tedious, boring and it is just no challenge. The elitist and egocentric attitude of some people here is just ridiculous. You are not a bad player because you cant (or dont want to) do a WC. (which I have done and it was just boring as hell)

Also no one is forcing you to do anything. You are forcing yourself to take certain ideas because you want a very specific playstyle. And that a very specific playstyle requires very specific ideas is just reasonable. There are a thousand ways to play the game and you pick 1 way. Of course your idea choice will be limited as there also have to be ideas for the other 999 ways to play the game.

That the AI is just not as good because it is a very complex game is a completely different matter. What are people even complaining about now? Is it the MP cost? Is it the time to annex, the missing diplomat? Is it the AI? Make up your mind or else it will just look like some silly whining.
 
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mazyus

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Are you kidding me?
How are they solely focusing on the multiplayer part of the game?
I for one like to play that game SP too and when I do I won't conquer the world.

So? Since the last patch I enjoy playing a free City in the HRE, doing so requires me to stay OPM.
What is wrong with that?
Why should PDS favour one of us over the other? They favour exacly what they want. And I like that.
The game is now certainly more challenging, but more entertaining too. (Out of my perspective I must say)

EU IV never stated to be a game about blobbing out with no real challange.
Let's face it, for most of us here it is not normal to loose. Why would we? That's no fun right?
But why is that? I just don't get it, I had many Ironman games where I would horribly loose.

Should PDS just make this game so easy that we all can just blob out and conquer the world?

Certainly not.

Do you really think that conquering the world was an easy job in the previous patch? One thing is to make it hard and other is to make it kinda impossible. If you want to stay as an OPM and look at the screen during 4 centuries of the game is ok, but this is is mainly a game of conquering and it's obvious that most people wants to conquer the world or tries to do it. If you can't see that these changes on coring are thought for MPs you must be blind. The only thing we asked was to stay the costs of coring at normal levels or a bit higher not making them that expensive.
Do you want to stay as a few-provinces country but with high developmen? Perfect, but let other people go wide if they want with lower development. I think a way to balance if someone wants to go tall or wide is the posibility of lowering the development of provinces with a reduction of coring costs.
 

iShurik

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Looking in other threads with screenshots I don't see people struggle with going wide...

Just two examples:

In my Ironman game i started with attacking Albania and then expanding in Serbia and Bosnia while securing an alliance with Poland and building Galleys. the financial situation was ok, i only needed 4 loans. I found it more difficult to get the big nations as an ally. Here is my current situation:
View attachment 129622
i am allied to Commonwealth and France, they are allied to Tuscany and Naples... right now my goal is to conquer egypt. i really need another diplomat, so next ideas diplomacy or aristocracy?

1ADD372F362CFD54C709AE2F31853438B618C70D


Glorious Tengri Empire of Oirat! Been relatively quiet except a few Muscovian interventions when it was still strong. Golden horde/Kazan/Shun are vassals. Just westernized, and am having my sweet peace time to catch up in tech, and i will, since i got a lucky Lux Stella event for a godlike heir called Johan :D

And it's not even in the endgame...
 
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Tacticus101

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but this is is mainly a game of conquering and it's obvious that most people wants to conquer the world or tries to do it.

Firstly, stop claiming to know what "most people" want to do. You get to speak for your own opinion, not that of 300,000 other people. YOU want to conquer the world, whether everyone else does is something for them to say.


Secondly, EU4 is advertised as:

Paradox Development Studio is back with the fourth installment of the award-winning Europa Universalis series. The empire building game Europa Universalis IV gives you control of a nation to guide through the years in order to create a dominant global empire. Rule your nation through the centuries, with unparalleled freedom, depth and historical accuracy. True exploration, trade, warfare and diplomacy will be brought to life in this epic title rife with rich strategic and tactical depth.


There are valid arguments on this thread about the costs of expansion, balance between tall and wide or the costs making things tedious (and you can mod them)....but please, please, please, stop trying to argue that conquest is somehow the only way to play or has some kind of sacred priority.
 
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mazyus

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Firstly, stop claiming to know what "most people" want to do. You get to speak for your own opinion, not that of 300,000 other people. YOU want to conquer the world, whether everyone else does is something for them to say.


Secondly, EU4 is advertised as:




There are valid arguments on this thread about the costs of expansion, balance between tall and wide or the costs making things tedious (and you can mod them)....but please, please, please, stop trying to argue that conquest is somehow the only way to play or has some kind of sacred priority.
Learn to read. I have never said that conquering and blobbing is the only way. What I said is that there should be balance. If I want to blob, why can't I? As I said, if you want to be a minor or medium sized country is your option, but you don't have to limitate my expansion. And I said it could be balanced in this way: Blobing but low on development - "small" country but highly developed, and even something in de middle.
And i said most of the people because it is what I see. Did I say everyone? No, i said MOST. Even with 60-70% it is "most".
 

mazyus

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Looking in other threads with screenshots I don't see people struggle with going wide...

Just two examples:





And it's not even in the endgame...
Having the kebab's region in 2 centuries is not going wide. Even less with Oirat, which half of its territory are from colonies and the other from hordes, so it has no coring problems.
 
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