Realistically is this justifiable

[wingzero890]

Monarch points are an abstraction. It seems quite reasonable to use history as a reference for what they represent, namely a country's ability to devote administrative and human ressources and attention.

Monarch points are an abstraction for sorcery. We are actually playing in the world of Magicka.

 

[durvas]

ITT: People acting like tripling the cost and time of diplo-annexing without removing any drawbacks and making additional changes (no embassy diplomat, no integration above 50 LD, etc.) was good design. I don't see how this could possibly be good. When one way to take territory is only considered because you don't have enough ADM, it's not a choice.

 

[Twoflower]

The main gripe is yes the time to annex, The secondary complaint is the utter increase in cost which has about Tripled from previous cost's. I also fail how you expect me to have ideas as England considering the starting king is a 0,0,0 and once you get an heir the war of roses event stops. so a good few years of 0,0,0

And how/why do you expect a country ruled by a complete disaster of a monarch to integrate half of France within less than a quarter of a century? By the by, your thread title starts "realistically". On what reality is that realism argument of yours supposed to be based, if not historical reality?

 

[Twoflower]

ITT: People acting like tripling the cost and time of diplo-annexing without removing any drawbacks and making additional changes (no embassy diplomat, no integration above 50 LD, etc.) was good design. I don't see how this could possibly be good. When one way to take territory is only considered because you don't have enough ADM, it's not a choice.

So what you're saying is that these should always be a way to take territory, because, you know, "fun" and waiting and planning is boring? Perhaps there should be situations where taking something is not the wisest choice. Before 1.12, that was hardly ever the case.

 

[zeredek]

Vassal feeding was hella OP
They nerfed it
This is fine

 

[Wizzington]

This is WAD. If you want to integrate giant vassals you're gonna want some ideas for it.

138 development is a lot.

 

[thenecessity]

Prior numbers were far too little for the amount of land being taken, these new numbers will take a while to get used to though.

 

[Sukramo]

No, you're trying to integrate practically the entire kingdom of Aquitaine. That's gonna take a long long LONG time. Look at how many years it took the U.S to integrate the South back in to the country.

Thats a terrible comparrison on so many levels.

 

[Denkt]

That is nearly half of Englands starting development you wan't to annex.

 

[Dakilla TM]

I feel like you fed your vassal a bit too much. Maybe blob some more and annex when you're bigger?

 

[Aquae Sulis]

Hey. I can already see the PU integrate exploit used to big extent. Castile will feed Aragon pretty much all of France then click a button and "magically" integrate.
England will feed Scotland. Poland will feed Lithuania. ....any others?

This is the important point, I feel.

You can justify higher annex/core costs as a cost against the power they give you (wide is still better than tall).

But how can you make that argument and still accept the fact that Castille, Poland and, to a lesser extent, England can diploannex vast amounts of development for no cost at all. (What's Lithuania? 9000 points to annex?).

A single decision, which acted as a sort of leveller in the past, or even a slight improvement, is a massive improvement now.

I just feel that while coring costs have arguably been balanced, these decisions are now completely unbalanced.

 

[Mattzey]

I feel like you fed your vassal a bit too much. Maybe blob some more and annex when you're bigger?

Well tbh i wasn't expecting it to cost 1400 dip but hey It's part of the new learn curve a lot of us are going to have to get used to.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Everybody who's dismissing the OP because this is a big vassal needs to reread his post. He never said it should be cheap or free. He suggested 900, which is probably still almost 50% higher than in 1.11. That seems totally reasonable to me.

Diplo Annex has not been balanced right with development. Costs are out of hand. Not only is Diplo Annex itself too expensive, worse it's now too difficult even to vassalize. As Milan with Brescia and Mantua integrated and Corsica vassalized, I can't vassalize Lucca or even Pisa. That's too much.

I get the increase in coring costs (even though I think they went a little too far with them), but Diplo Annex is way overdone.

 

[AndreasPhokas]

That is nearly half of Englands starting development you wan't to annex.

Holy crap I didn't realize that. Jeez yeah you're going to increase your nation's development by 50% it should cost a whole crapton. I mean once you annex these guys you're pretty much untouchable at this point. The only nation close to you at this point would be.....the ottomans?

 

[Incompetent]

The cost per development is comparable to just annexing right away, and it's much cheaper than developing land yourself. So the advantage of force-vassalising instead of force-annexing is that your vassal, having little else to spend MP on, will do a lot of development that you benefit from at greatly reduced cost. Seems legit to me, at least if you have the Common Sense DLC. It seems to be a deliberate decision by the devs that blobbing in general should cost a lot of mana unless you can stack discounts.

On the other hand, the 'press button, automatically inherit giant subject' decisions that certain countries get are still very powerful. I can imagine Paradox putting caps on the total development you can engulf by this kind of decision, to prevent excessive feeding of Lithuania, Aragon and so on.

 

[D-A-C]

To be honest I sympathise with the OP. The increased costs without many (or any?) counterbalances seems like its causing alot of problems for many people.

The problem i have with those defending this (many blindly) is that as I said, there doesn't seem to be any counterbalances to many of these new changes, and considering the randomness of generating the magic bird mana necessary to absorb countries diplomatically in the first place, it widely varies the amount of time and effort needed to diplo-annex,

If you ruler is 3/5/2 it might not be as much of an issue, but if you get back to back rulers like 2/0/3 or even 4/1/2 it is taking you years longer to accumulate that kind of bird mana.

Sure you can take an idea to help with that, but I thought (maybe wrongly) ideas were altered to try and make some of them less like 'auto-includes' in 99% of runs no matter the country.

 

[Plantagent]

So.. INF + ADM policy, which was a WC requirement is now more of a normal requirement. Also seems like this is maybe discouraging one-tagging the world as minor japanese daimyos?

After all, you could just... not integrate your vassals.

So maybe we should have, say, a march or two to feed while conquering directly and feeding a regular vassal so your dip does something useful. Not a one-tag, but... hmmm. I'd say... Persia, France, Italy as Marches. Maybe Hindustan. I'd have to look at the form decision - I've had a vassal magically turn into France before. Mughals would be really nice to feed. Half diplo-annex, half core everything else. If WC is possible, the MP prices aren't too high.

Hell, maybe I'll go Poland, tons of marches and see if I can WC Into Space. I need those Polish achievements, I haven't got *any*.

 

[MiniaAr]

You're probably paying more DIP to integrate your vassal than previously, but you're also paying no DIP for all the marketplaces and docks you're going to build for the entire campaign.

 

[AndreasPhokas]

Actually that makes good sense.....no more monarch power for buildings is huge. So some of the cost moved from buildings to coring.

 

[Sch4tzmeister]

I think it's fine that it costs more. You can't just vassal feed and then annex it all for some mere bird mana, but rather a significant amount. So you actually have to think about doing it.